Comments on Is suicide ever "the answer," or just a selfish way to end your own pain??

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Quirky, regarding my post on your brother.....

You mentioned that he may not have even known what he was doing at the time, well, I WANTED to say that in my comment, but for some reason, I didn't know if you'd appreciate that, but I can tell you that in my worst times of the blackest depression and sadness, I have lost parts of my life, and it scares me to death wondering, what if, in those times that I didn't know I existed, I had decided to take my own life?  No one would have ever known that I had no idea of what I was doing.  Stay strong!

posted by Kelli on July 27, 2004 at 8:12 PM | link to this | reply

wenchy, my sweet wenchy, I shall toast to that with you in mind!

posted by Julia. on July 27, 2004 at 7:58 PM | link to this | reply

You are very welcome, Quirky, and thank you for your words, too ...

true words they are and here's to triumphing, lovely one xx.

posted by Moohahaha on July 27, 2004 at 6:23 PM | link to this | reply

wenchy...first of all, your words were anything BUT feeble, and have

touched me more than I could express to you here as little black dots on a screen. But just know that I am grateful for your support and caring, and I feel for what it must be like to live in your shoes, as well. So many times in life, we just don't have any answers for what is brought forth for us to experience, and the best we can do is survive and hopefully, triumph.

posted by Julia. on July 26, 2004 at 11:50 PM | link to this | reply

kelli, I've come to realize that it doesn't matter what he thought, and he

may not even have known what he thought. It matters  that I put this to rest in my heart, and to that end I shall strive. Thanks for commenting.

posted by Julia. on July 26, 2004 at 11:46 PM | link to this | reply

I'm so sorry, Quirky, that you have lived through and with such pain ...

I feel so much for you in my heart and know that my feeble words here will not be able to capture such adequately.  When I was fifteen, my mother's second husband, whom had legally adopted me and whom I adored, left us and disappeared off the face of the planet. He told us he was leaving on a work-related trip to a nearby city for a few days and he never came back. We later received a letter saying he loved us and was heartbroken to go but was never coming back. It was later learned that he had embezzled thousands upon thousands of dollars from his place of work and he basically ran away from the crime. He is on Australia's official missing person's list and even now, eighteen years later, his face will appear on a bus station or shopping centre poster, or in the newspaper, amongst the countless others who are officially missing, and the shock of seeing him there never truly eases and reopens all the questions of "Why?" In my heart I know he loved my mother, my sister and myself, he was nothing other than beautiful to us and the knowledge that he had a whole other secret life of self-torment bewilders me in many ways to this day.

Having said all of that, I would never presume to understand the magnitude of your grief and loss and the unanswered questions you bear, Quirky One ... I just wanted to stop by and say that I am thinking of you greatly and that I very deeply admire the brave and cathartic manner in which you are expressing your feelings here.  With much, much love and thoughts, Heather (Wenchy) xxooxxooxx.

posted by Moohahaha on July 26, 2004 at 11:32 PM | link to this | reply

Quirky.....

I just now read about your brother, and I can't contribute anything other than the fact that one of my constant and lingering thoughts is "what if the things people do that we think are wrong, are RIGHT to them, truly within their own mind they feel they are correct, and are making the right decision?"  This started when I heard of the man who shot a doctor who was performing abortions, and right up until he was electrocuted, he stood by his decision, and informed his family "I'll see you in heaven".  This really bothered me, still bothers me.  Inside the mind of another, their views and actions towards what they TRULY feel is the RIGHT thing to do.  I'm not saying your brother thought any of this, but he thought SOMETHING, and I pray one day, you'll get to find out what it was.

posted by Kelli on July 26, 2004 at 5:42 PM | link to this | reply

possum, thanks for taking the time to repond to kay-ren.

posted by Julia. on July 25, 2004 at 10:00 AM | link to this | reply

Didn't see Kay-Rens rejoinder here earlier. I agree Kay-Ren. Responsibility, Response-ability. The ability to respond rationally, empathetically, objectively. If that ability is not present? It is easy for survivors to pontificate about what is right or wrong about certain actions 'post-facto'; after the fact.  

posted by Possum on July 24, 2004 at 8:40 PM | link to this | reply

ricky, thanks for the comment and the link. I've read and commented on your

wonderful post.

posted by Julia. on July 24, 2004 at 1:44 PM | link to this | reply

poetkitty, your comment gives me much to think about, thank you

for expressing yourself so eloquently as well.

posted by Julia. on July 24, 2004 at 1:38 PM | link to this | reply

qwerty, I agree that having the answer would not allay our minds,

but perhaps it could help us understand him better and what he must have been going through.

posted by Julia. on July 24, 2004 at 1:37 PM | link to this | reply

T99, I don't know, I guess there IS no reason why

he shouldn't have killed himself, then, if that was what he wanted.

posted by Julia. on July 24, 2004 at 1:35 PM | link to this | reply

carmelicious, thanks for taking the time to comment.

posted by Julia. on July 24, 2004 at 1:34 PM | link to this | reply

Suicide is never the answer and I may be dead-wrong but I hardly doubt it. . . . A lot of people had died because they had foolishly considered suicide. Go to THE DAY MY EARTH STOOD STILL - AN EPIPHANY. . .

posted by RICKYJFICO_PASSIONTHRU_U on July 24, 2004 at 10:12 AM | link to this | reply

yeah, but there are none

that's the shit of it, isn't it princess? that sometimes there are no answers, no matter how desperately we try to source them.
we want to be in control, yet our free will causes us to question every potential choice. nothing's black and white, and in a sense, we simply live by our guts. your brother's told him he had to go - maybe he had no explanations for you, it's likely he didn't understand a damn thing either.
is suicide The Answer? it's an answer, right or wrong, and i maintain we have the right to choose it, like anything else.
you are strong and eloquent and wise.
thank you for sharing this story.

posted by poetkitty on July 24, 2004 at 10:04 AM | link to this | reply

It'd also seem

That your brother was either majorly depressed and couldn't find his path in life, and so, by killing people, defined himself, or he was psychotically depressed and lost all rational thought until he landed in jail and was confronted with the reality of it all.

The answer is there, it's just probably not one you're going to like. Having the answer to something like that doesn't really allay people's minds.

posted by qwertyui on July 24, 2004 at 8:33 AM | link to this | reply

Suicide is an answer

just not particularly the best answer, although you don't really much care about that once you are dead.

posted by qwertyui on July 24, 2004 at 8:26 AM | link to this | reply

Then what would wipe the slate clean - ie, why should he NOT commit suicide?

posted by Tamara99 on July 24, 2004 at 7:51 AM | link to this | reply

Quirky,

What alot you've put yourself through -- asking questions that can have no answers. It will be better when you get through the next stage, the forgiveness, and get it done with.

I wish you nothing but the very best.

posted by HarveyG on July 23, 2004 at 10:47 PM | link to this | reply

Thanks Quirky- I'll reply to you in email as well. I need to reply to Possum, I hope you don't mind.

Possum, dude, one word - responsibility. We are each, no matter what is going on in our heads, are responsible for our actions. If we keep preaching that no one is responsible because they are crazy, "just look at their actions as proof", then we are giving everyone an excuse to CHOSE to do crazy things. I've survived suicide attempts, too. I believed at one time I barted with Satan. Did I? Was I crazy? 

It was the life I knew and I, eventually, chose to start living. Perhaps that was the craziest thing of all, but I take responibility for it all.

posted by Kay-Ren on July 23, 2004 at 10:43 PM | link to this | reply

A book I read by Dr. Robert Anthony pointed out:

posted by carmelicious on July 23, 2004 at 9:57 PM | link to this | reply

Possum, point well taken. I keep spouting off about "the question in

realization is never 'why' but 'who am I' yet that is what I keep asking, why, why, why." Wrong question. Better yet, to work on the forgiveness issue without all the questions.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 7:03 PM | link to this | reply

Correct Quirky. No sound mind goes about killing people. (Except those who live in white houses, please excuse me, I can't help the inference). What I was telling was that for YOUR own sanity and health, you have to understand to forgive your brother because he was not responsible for his actions at the time.

All of us at every moment become victims or beneficiaries of unintended consequences. There is nothing or little we can do about that. The messenger who 'just happened' to be at the World Trade Centre on 9/11 when the planes dived in didn't have a choice.

posted by Possum on July 23, 2004 at 6:57 PM | link to this | reply

is it real, I am so sorry to hear.

posted by Star5_ on July 23, 2004 at 6:29 PM | link to this | reply

Possum, I think I understand one of your points, that being, the

correlation between insanity and suicide means that he may not even have known why he killed the other people?? I want an explanation that even he might not have?? Is that what you mean?

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 6:18 PM | link to this | reply

Precisely my point, Quirky; a sick mind cannot distinguish right from wrong, worse if he got it the other way around. To demand from him an explanation or a reason 'why' serves no useful purpose; because no court of law or 'reasonable minds' should accept them because they come from an aberrated mind.

I realise the difficulty in absorbing all these. Give the thoughts time to settle and let the rational mind digest and sort the data.

posted by Possum on July 23, 2004 at 5:43 PM | link to this | reply

possum, I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to articulate all

of this. That being said, I am not searching for answers to why he killed himself, that only matters to me because he did it without letting any of us understand why he killed OTHERS. That is what I seek to understand, the mind behind the killer of others, not of himself. Understand??

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 5:14 PM | link to this | reply

Quirky, if you are searching for a reason, I'm afraid you will never find it because suicide is, by its nature, unreasonable. i.e., insane. "We are all insane, some with periods of intervals when we are sane." said the wizard.

There is a direct correlation between insanity and suicide. And insanity is both a mental and emotional aberration which is a disease not unlike cancer, or diabetes. Only it is a much complicated one because the wounds are not visible and the pain is easily camouflaged.

There is very much to learned about suicide. By those threatened, and by those who could be affected. To those affected, the damage is far greater because in themselves, they create traumas, that can instigate depression.

I am a suicide survivor. This is where I speak from. And I have devoted almost two years now studying the disease and to undersatnd my own condition. I am lucky that intervention happened before I was successful at my attempts. " Some people will say I was crazy to have even attempted suicide." It may have said out of ignorance, but the statement is uncannily accurate. I acknowledged my disease, went for treatment, asked those close to me to understand my condition so they do not get traumatized or stigmatized and develop understanding and empathy with those who may suffer. 

posted by Possum on July 23, 2004 at 5:08 PM | link to this | reply

Kay-ren, wow. Whoa, nellie, that's a lot of questions! I am

choosing to answer them via email, thanks for commenting.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 4:43 PM | link to this | reply

wiley, my mind is already *disturbed* so don't worry about that!

Thanks for your comment.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 4:43 PM | link to this | reply

Is suicide ever "the answer" or just a selfish way to end your own pain? This is just the first of many questions you've raised with this post. Was there something medically wrong with your brother that you might have, too? Does anyone else care that you may be homicidal? Are they watching you? Is there anyone out there that has any ideas, from talking or profiling your brother, who could help you understand what happened? If you could raise his spirit to ask him would you do it? Would you feel bad for putting the medium through dealing with your brother? Are mediums real or would they just be hoaxing you for some reason? What if you didn’t like the answers, would knowing them still help you?

 

We all have the ability to kill within us. We also all have the ability to give life. Life or Death, day or night, good or evil, it is our choice, which we pursue and catch.

 

Sure, there are a lot of gray areas, but it all, eventually, comes down to one simple choice: Live or Die?

 

He chose death. You chose life. I like you better.

posted by Kay-Ren on July 23, 2004 at 3:15 PM | link to this | reply

QuirkyAlone,

I comment with some trepidation, because I wouldn't want to disturb your mind in any way luv.

Perhaps this is one of those times when all of us should be listeners? I don't know.

My lady friend Ruth, she with whom  I shared love for a time when our spouses died, would know about what you have gone through to a certain extent, because her mother committed suicide.

QA, my feeling  about suicide is non-judgemental, simply because I think man does not yet understand the circuitry of the brain, and how suddenly it can short circuit.Peace, prayers for ya luv.

posted by WileyJohn on July 23, 2004 at 2:19 PM | link to this | reply

symphony, not to worry, I don't mind you doing that one bit. Take care,

yourself sweetie.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 1:08 PM | link to this | reply

gheeghee, you are correct, I am sure he created some karma that he is now

having to deal with. All choices have consequences.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 1:07 PM | link to this | reply

sanityslipping, thank you for both of your comments here, and for sharing

what you did. Blessings to you.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 1:05 PM | link to this | reply

Tapsel, thank you for sharing your experience.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 1:02 PM | link to this | reply

T99, I think he may have thought he could pay for his crimes

by dying at his own hands. Do I think that? No, you cannot pay for a life taken by taking another, even your own.  

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 1:01 PM | link to this | reply

shadow, I appreciate your comment, but feel you missed the point of what I

was trying to say here. Maybe I don't even know what that was, except that I am both grateful to him for sparing his family any more trauma and angry that he left us with so many questions--not about why he died but about why he killed. I don't really care why he chose to die, but I do care why he chose to kill, because that is what I think about every day of my life.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 12:57 PM | link to this | reply

roofpig, well, obviously a lot was wrong with my brother that no one

knew about, chemical imbalance could have been one part.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 12:48 PM | link to this | reply

SanitySlipping

thank you for your kind words...........take care

-------------------------------------------------

quarky, sorry to use your blog to answer...........take care

posted by _Symphony_ on July 23, 2004 at 12:48 PM | link to this | reply

symphony, thank you. I knew about your brother, too. Very sorry. I know

that I will never know "the why" about what he did, and am only now searching for "who I am" in this reflection. For I believe relationships and things that "just happen" to us, all have meaning, it's up to the individual to discover it. Sometimes we do, sometimes we don't.  

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 12:45 PM | link to this | reply

Ariala, two of the people he killed, he knew, and the other two, he

did not know.

posted by Julia. on July 23, 2004 at 12:42 PM | link to this | reply

Quirky~awesome post.

my cousin blew his brains out about 10 years ago, and we still haven't recovered....I am a believer in the afterlife.  How can we escape the pain in our soul by destroying our body?  I'll never get it.  My condolences to the family......GG

posted by Gheeghee on July 23, 2004 at 11:55 AM | link to this | reply

Quirky, SYM:

I wish that you could find the answers you seek. And I wish that you never had to experience this at all. It is a truly sad thing when a loved one leaves us, and even more so when there is no way to understand why. I can't tell you how to deal with it. (I have lost 2 friends to suicide and another to sheer stupidity), and I deal with it badly. I repress. I evaluate it and then look at it emotionlessly. Logic dictates - Life must end. So I have lost a few friends in the process that have heard me say - 'Well, they're dead.' And move on with my life. But it's all I have right now to handle it. I am really a big softy inside (I actually almost cried when Brendan Fraser's character died on last night's episode of Scrubs) but everybody has to deal with things like this in their own way. I hope someday you both find the peace that you are searching for.

posted by SanitySlipping on July 23, 2004 at 11:39 AM | link to this | reply

Sanityslipping

Yes, you are right, not everyone turns to the "dark side". At the time of my friend's attempt I was in undergraduate school and the general information was that people retain the desire to hurt not only themselves, but those around them. My prayers and blessings to you for your courage and strength to take a negative act and turn it into postive action and support. love shadow

posted by Keshet on July 23, 2004 at 11:39 AM | link to this | reply

roofpig, myddrin:

roofpig:

 I would agree with what you said except for one thing. Virtually all instincts can be overridden by the higher functions of the brain. Not everyone knows why they do what they do. Perhaps yes, it is an imbalance, or perhaps it is out of a sense of sparing those that they love the dissapointment and humilation because of the deeds that they commited. Unless they leave a note, we'll never know. We can speculate to our heart's content, but we will never truly know. And in the end - brain chemistry or not it is up to the survivors to decide if they think it's selfish or not. And I know a number of people who don't duck as much as they should.

myddin:

Being a 'survivor' of suicide attempts (yes, plural) myself - I have to say that not everyone tweaks to the negative. I went through some really hard times in life and there were about 3 times that I couldn't see any way out. Be it brain chemistry or just extreme loss of hope, I decided to 'get it over with' - I obviously failed. Nothing spectacular, nothing news worthy, nothing even my friends or family knew about until about 2 years ago. But I am now, a bitter, jaded, and cynical human being - but I always was. The difference now is - I see life a little bit differently, I see I have the ability to step back and look at a few more angles than I did before. But this all came from ME wanting to change who I was, not looking at it as 'Jesus, I can't even commit suicide right!' I took it as - 'It's not my time and the Universe will let me know when it is. Until then, try to help those around you get to where they need to be. And have some fun while doing it.' So not all of us turn to the dark side after that type of incident.

 

posted by SanitySlipping on July 23, 2004 at 11:31 AM | link to this | reply

Quirky - There are so many of us - and none with answers

My brother committed suicide at age 25.  That was nearly 40 years ago.  No one knows why.  My sister who found him had a nervous breakdown.  I had my baby the day after his funeral.  I had planned on naming my baby after my brother and my mother would not let me.  In her grief and sorrow and questioning, she was afraid it would be a stigma on my child.  My father always blamed himself til the day he died.  My mother searched for a last letter from my brother until the day she died.  She could not believe that he would do such a thing without leaving her a goodbye letter.  No answers.  Only questions.

posted by TAPS. on July 23, 2004 at 11:26 AM | link to this | reply

I think in the case of euthanasia, it might be the answer - but as an escape from emotional trauma?  I'm not as lenient on that. 

Do you feel that he paid for his crimes by dying?

posted by Tamara99 on July 23, 2004 at 11:16 AM | link to this | reply

Quirky,

Can you believe that I put Ariala's name down instead of yours? Sorry, I had read her sweet comment and guess it was still on my mind. love shadow

posted by Keshet on July 23, 2004 at 11:12 AM | link to this | reply

Ariala,

Two things. (1) No one every really knows why a person takes their own life. Only the person who does so and then maybe they are not sure. True sucicides never tell you their plans, just do it. (2) I had a good friend who attempted to kill himself. He drove his car into a pillar that held up a interstate bridge doing 77 mph. He survived this and he became a totally changed person. He was a really great guy. He was kind, sweet, smart, well respected, and compassionate to all people. He never explained why he did this horrible deed to anyone. He spent 6 weeks in the hospital, caused his parents total bankruptcy, his sibblings turned on him, his parents couldn't cope with his changed personality. He became a total alcoholic and last I heard was living on the streets. He became a bitter and mentally destroyed human being who attacked people, tormented animals and just caused horrible negative karma for everyone. Would it had not been more merciful had he succeeded? People who survive attempted sucicides are never emotionally or mentally right from what I have researched. Sometimes their staying alive causes more pain and tears then the death would have. Sometimes its best never to know and just remember them as they were. love shadow

posted by Keshet on July 23, 2004 at 11:09 AM | link to this | reply

QUIRKY

I wrote this poem for my brother, if you want to read it....you are more than welcome to..........take care  permalink

posted by _Symphony_ on July 23, 2004 at 10:58 AM | link to this | reply

I sincerely believe that people who commit suicide have a chemical imbalance somewhere in their brain.  We all have the instinct to survive; it's what makes duck when something is flying at us or pulling our hand away quickly from a hot stove.  That's a really strong instinct and I don't think you can overcome it unless something is wrong with you from the start.

I feel sorry for people like that because I don't honestly think it's their fault.  I can't hold them to being selfish.

posted by roofpig on July 23, 2004 at 10:57 AM | link to this | reply

i know how you feel

my brother killed himself on november 29th 2003, .................he had a secret life too, I miss him so much, but I understand that he wanted to do this that was his escape, i personally would not follow in his footsteps, no matter how depressed i get. he left behind 5 children.

I don't think you will ever find out the answers that you are looking for, on why he had a "secret life" and why he killed himself., I been searching and I am none the wiser

there life was their own, we never owned them.

 my brother was only 32 years old.

I hope your hurt heals soon, and I wish you the very best for the future, take care and look after yourself....take care

posted by _Symphony_ on July 23, 2004 at 10:49 AM | link to this | reply

Wow, the pain and the questions are truly endless. I tend to believe

he must have had some sort of rage in him that was unresolved, or he was ill due to some psychological/chemical imbalanes. Did he know the people he killed or were they randomly selected?  You don't have to answer these questions if it's too painful or personal.

posted by Ariala on July 23, 2004 at 10:44 AM | link to this | reply