Go to I WRITE, THEREFORE I AM
- Add a comment
- Go to Does anyone care that I may be homicidal?? Should "they" be watching me?
T-99, many times, YOU ARE JUST A BALL BUSTER!!
I can't be silent about this any longer. Listen, you are constantly playing the Devils Advocate, always finding fault with others, and always finding the "yeah, but..." in EVERYTHING! Why is it you seem to feel you are always the ritious one? You, my dear, are not perfect, nor do YOU have all the answers...just like the rest of us. I don't understand why you are more than 80% ball buster to SO many of us?? Are you like this with the ones you have physical contact with? JFC! Chill out and eat a piece of modest humble pie already. You need it.
posted by
SpitFire70
on August 30, 2004 at 10:54 PM
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T99,
I'm not disputing anything you're saying about my brother.
However, as it relates to me and your statement that "you would not meet me alone in a dark alley"--you are certainly entitled to your opinion and you can rationalize it until the cows come home, but I believe your fears are unfounded.
That is MY opinion and nothing you tell me about my brother is going to change my belief that your fears--though they are real for you--are justified and rational.
What do you hope to accomplish here, that I will say "You're right?" Sorry, it's not going to happen. We must agree to disagree on this.
posted by
Julia.
on August 27, 2004 at 10:34 AM
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Do you know how/why your brother became a killer? No? Then you DON'T know that your environment didn't create him, or that it wasn't heriditary.
Science has not mapped out every DNA sequence. There are skills, talents, tastes and desires which are strangely genetic. In comparing twins, separated at birth, they often find odd coincidences which cannot be put down to how they were raised - naming a pet the same thing, both having a favorite sweater which is identical.
Did he know since birth that he would grow up to be a serial killer? Doubtful. So there was a time when he, too, thought he wasn't like that. Then something triggered him to change. What was it? An experience? A hormonal imbalance? A birth defect? Brain damage? Insanity?
Coal and diamonds look nothing alike - coal is black, diamonds are white/clear, coal is soft, diamonds are hard, coal can burn, diamonds do not. There are a thousand situations in which they would remain different But given the RIGHT circumstances, coal becomes a diamond.
Until you know the cause, you cannot rule anything out.
--T99
posted by
Tamara99
on August 26, 2004 at 11:09 PM
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T99,
I have no problem with you commenting or discussing it. As you said, I wrote about it, opening it up. But all of your recent comment was about my brother. However you may have felt in considering whether you would feel safe meeting him is one thing. We've already established that he was a killer, so your fear is justified.
But saying you would fear me because I am related to him, when in fact there is no inherited "homicide gene" and when in fact I have already written about my home environment enough that any rational person would not assign the blame to his upbringing...well, frankly, obviously you have a fear, but I don't for a second feel that it is justified. It does, however, perfectly underscore the point of my post. And as long as there are people like you who would fear someone like me for no rational reason, then I am better off keeping my past to myself.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 9:31 PM
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Of course, it's fear. I never said it wasn't. But self-preservation is a very strong motivator, and it would be one that would make me take precautions about meeting someone from whom a red flag was raised.
You say you were not wrong about your brother. That it was another side of him. I say we're bantering symantecs on that note. The people he killed didn't get to choose which side of him they met. Do not mistake fear for ignorance. Fear is a warning to pay attention. To ignore fear and the dangers that provoke it, can be lethal. That's why it exists.
What I'm experiencing is something you never went through. You never went through a period where his guilt/innocence was in question. Before you knew, you 'knew' by default that he was innocent. When you found out, it was already established fact that he was guilty, so it was simply a matter of learning that, dealing with it, and living with it.
But YOU never had to choose sides, to put yourself in intimate contact, in dangerous situations, AFTER you knew the danger existed. You never had to put yourself in a position to trust him, to still believe his innocence when the potential for guilt was there. Would he have ever harmed you? Would he have harmed your children? Would he harm your friends, neighbors, co-workers, etc? At what point is someone no longer safe?
For all of us, there is a line between "us" and "them". Most people draw that line between man & animals, or animals & plants. (Ie - they'll kill an animal, but not a person. They'll kill a plant, but not an animal). Those lines are socially accepted. We can compare plants & animals and know which is which. For your brother, however, he somehow delineated between people he would kill and people he wouldn't. But where? How? That is socially unaccepted because it's ambiguous.
What I/we have to learn is where you draw the line, and is it one I/we can accept?
As long as the answer is "I don't know", the potential for danger is there.
Now, I'm not trying to alienate you, nor am I trying to be hurtful. You have brought up the discussion, and I am simply articulating what I see, what I think and what I feel. If you no longer want my participation in this regard, let me know.
--T99
posted by
Tamara99
on August 26, 2004 at 7:37 PM
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Kay-Ren, thanks.
That sounds familiar but I can't remember. I'll go look it up.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 5:32 PM
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Oh Shadow,
No you forgot to mention that. Now I'M afraid!!
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 5:31 PM
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Quirky,
Fear is a sucky thing. Great post and overwhelming comments. You ever see the movie, "Defending Your Life"? If not, I highly recommend it to everyone.
posted by
Kay-Ren
on August 26, 2004 at 3:45 PM
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Oh Quirk,
Did I mention. I have a nice evil bullwhip like Indiana Jones at my disposal, just in case. LOL shadow
posted by
Keshet
on August 26, 2004 at 2:47 PM
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Shadow,
Yeah, "normal"--hahahahah (evil maniacal laughter)
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:40 PM
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Tapsel-T,
Are you sure? Will you want to "frisk" me first?? Lol. Thanks!!
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:38 PM
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Klara,
Yes, you are right. It is indeed unjustified to label someone "potentially criminal" based upon those assumptions.
But as you pointed out, and I concur, fear is the primary driving force in T99's reaction, and other people who also make those assumptions. That, plus regardless of whether we meet them in "real life" or online, no one really knows ANYONE 100%.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:38 PM
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Katray,
I thank you for such eloquent words, and I could not have expressed it any better. Everything you said is exactly how I feel. "Killer gene," indeed. You are a true friend and one of the nicest people I have ever met in my life. God bless you.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:37 PM
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Tamara99,
So I am a "potential criminal" because I had the same parents and might have a "homicide gene?" That is, in my opinion, ludicrous and totally without justification…there is no such thing. As for having the same upbringing, my mother could hold a candle to every single other mother on earth so I certainly didn't inherent any potentially criminal urges from that.
As for being wrong because I thought my brother was kind and gentle, I emphatically disagree with you on that…the person I knew WAS kind, gentle, loving, and a beautiful human being. That he had another side that was not those things, DOES NOT take those traits away from him.
As for not wanting to meet me in a dark alley for the first time, I recognize that as "fear" talking, and nothing more.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:36 PM
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Jimmy 68,
"A bit off??" Hmmm. Good thing you added that "not in a bad way" or I might have tried to "off" you, too! ;-)
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:36 PM
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Spitfire,
I agree ignorance plays a large part in some people's reactions, but more than that, it is fear of the unknown. Very little is known about mental illness, and this fuels a person's fears because they don't have all the "answers" about why someone does what they do.
I would also tend to agree with you, that if I had "homicidal tendencies" i more than likely would be keeping my mouth firmly shut--here and in the "real world."
P.S. Come alone to that dark alley. Tell no one where you are going. And do not even THINK of wearing a wire.
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 2:35 PM
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Quirk,
After plenty of on-line conversations and phone conversations I would have no regrets or fears ever knowing you in person. After years of studying groups and individuals both in social and psychological realms I consider you about as normal a person as I could find. Of course, my main friends are about as weird as they are anthropologists and archaeologists, hee hee. And, if you consider the fact that here lately there are plenty of men who protrayed themselves as normal, but killed their wives without true cause, and they come from totally normal and harmless families. And, think about the students who murdered their class mates. They came from good families without any history of violence. So after you meet Spitfire in the alley, just come around the corner to next alley and we'll plan on how to rob a nice large banking reserve somewhere, hee hee. shadow
posted by
Keshet
on August 26, 2004 at 2:28 PM
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I just got off the phone with Quirky.
She wants to meet me in a dark alley tonight. She told me to come alone.
posted by
SpitFire70
on August 26, 2004 at 1:20 PM
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Hmmm, this is, well, I don't know what the hell to make of some of
these comments. I have "known" Quirky on a more personal basis for a while now, no not in person, but I think of her as a friend; a friend as real as one in person. A few others I've met through Blogit I have become friends with and have spoken to on the phone and private email. Though we may not have met in person, it could be along the same lines as meeting anyone you've spoken to on the phone for work or whatever and then decide to meet up for coffee or a drink sometime. Hell, my dad met my step mom (of 20 years now) via phone through business. She lived in Virginia and he in Chicago. They literally fell in love on the phone. My brother met his wife online in a church chat room! See, some people CAN be who they portray themselves as in other ways than in person. And, being as it may, most of us have written blogs here that are things we may not even tell our closest friends. Besides, if Quirky had homicidal tendencies, I highly doubt she would have ever mentioned her brother situation in the first place.
posted by
SpitFire70
on August 26, 2004 at 1:18 PM
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WELL, WELL, WELL...look what I missed
by not being able to be online this morning!
Quite the comments we have here, and I intend to
respond to them all, but it will have to wait for a
bit as I have some other "fish to fry."
posted by
Julia.
on August 26, 2004 at 10:50 AM
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Actually I was responding to Katray - I didn't see your post, Klara, until after I had hit 'Add Comment'.
posted by
Tamara99
on August 26, 2004 at 10:37 AM
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I should've obviously made this more clear, Tamara.
Thanks for responding while I was still here.
I am not assuming I know Quirky from her blogs, or her writings at all. Nor do I believe that we can know anyone else online in any "real" way (if you read my writings here, you will see that Quirky and I disagree on this entirely, in a friendly way). Like you, I don't feel that we can know anyone completely online, as it's too much of a one-sided medium. Caution is always to be used, especially online.
I simply focused on studies, however, as that seemed to be the jist of the post. Studies have shown that some individuals because of "other" influences, i.e. damages sustained to the brain via falls or serious childhood illnesses that went undetected, among other factors.
I would not be averse to meeting anyone with a family member with a criminal bent who is not a criminal themselves, though. We don't know at all, each day, who we are dealing with in real life. We may run across others with backgrounds we know nothing of. Online, of course, is different, and if you meant that you would not meet Quirk alone until you'd met her offline, among others, of course, that is understandable, as that is simply caution.
posted by
KlaraRoberts
on August 26, 2004 at 9:57 AM
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Quirky - I don't know anything about you except for what
you have written, but I will meet you in a dark alley anytime you wish. From there we could have some fun and get to know one another, my treat.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 26, 2004 at 9:46 AM
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No. It is an honest answer to a question Quirky herself raised. As you yourself said, we *DON'T* know how it happened.....and until I know someone, I am NOT going to assume their innocence.
I have been online for over 15 years, and have met HUNDREDS of people. In all that time, I have only met ONE......count it.....ONE person who was exactly the same in person as she was online. No matter how many blogs someone writes, nor how long s/he is a member of Blogit, NO ONE here *knows* them.
Do you honestly think that you can know Quirky via her blogs better than Quirky knew her brother? She described the brother she knew as kind and gentle, too. She was wrong. Are you willing to risk your life that you're not?
--T99
posted by
Tamara99
on August 26, 2004 at 9:36 AM
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Like Katray, Quirk, I usually don't step into these deep, dark discussions.
But Tamara is making an assumption that it was the family dynamics that caused the criminality. While there are of course, studies that have shown that some criminality can be traced to family dynamics and gene pools, there are also studies that have "attributed" this to "other influences". There are just as many individuals with bad genes and bad dynamics that have come through life with no symptoms, as I am sure there are those that display significant symptoms. No one can predict who has "potential" homicidal or criminal potential with any certainty and certainly no one deserves to be thought of as "potentially homicidal or criminal" based on certain studies done on certain groups, of which the individual may not be included in the overall criteria.
On Tamara's side though, it's fear, probably that is the driving factor, and fear always resides within all of us. Some of us are afraid of some things, and some are of course, afraid of other things.
posted by
KlaraRoberts
on August 26, 2004 at 9:27 AM
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Wow, there aren't enough words to describe how cruel and ignorant that last comment is. I normally don't react like this, but your reasoning is so wrong as to be almost incoherent. What are you really talking about Tamara? As far as I know, there hasn't been a "killer" gene identified, and I believe studies show murder is not a genetic flaw. Enviroment? Have you not read Quirky's previous posts about the wonderful, loving mother who raised them? No abuse, no horror stories from their childhood. Yes, a father who deserted, but how many countless others have endured abandonment and much worse by a parent and developed into normal lives. Nobody as of now knows the answer and your assumptions and especially that line about meeting her in a dark alley are an extremely hurtful and unnecessary treatment of a woman who has revealed her gentle, loving spirit and shared her deepest anguish. Sure, you're free to express your feelings and opinions here, but I feel you need to reexamine them on this issue.
posted by
Katray2
on August 26, 2004 at 6:34 AM
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I care, and I'm not ashamed to admit it.
It is not at all unusual for families to carry traits, good and bad, that are passed along through the family dynamic. This is one reason why when children act out, they also check out the family because the child is a representative of the environment they live in. Children of alcoholics have issues with alcohol even if they never take a drop. Look at the Jackson family or the Osmonds.....the talent was genetic, but without the atmosphere to develop it, they would never have become child stars at 5 and 10 years old.
Should you be "watched"? No - the police don't have those kinds of resources to watch every potential criminal out there. There are enough who are fulfilling their potential that they don't have time to stand guard over the rest.
However, that doesn't mean that people should throw all safety precautions to the wind so as not to hurt or offend you. I like you - not saying I don't. But I wouldn't meet you for the first time in a dark alley.
--T99
posted by
Tamara99
on August 26, 2004 at 2:26 AM
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I would have never thought of you as a likely candidate for homicidal...
bingeing...you may be a bit off, but not in a bad way, I like the way you express yourself. As far as other people not liking or trusting you because of what your brother did...fuck 'em, they're idiots...Hell, I've been known to have homicidal impulses...it's the actions that make us bad, not the thoughts...
posted by
jimmy68
on August 25, 2004 at 11:29 PM
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Q, I can honestly say that I don't even think about your brother
when having contact with you (publically or private email) I know who
you are as much as I do, and that is
who I consider a friend. Many, if not all serial killers, criminals, criminally violent insane people, thieves, rapists, wife-beaters, etc. have siblings and parents that have absolutely NOTHING to do with the actions and/or decisions of others; related by blood or by choice. How many serial killers, rapists, or violently insane people on the news do you read or hear about where it turns out the siblings were the same way? I have never heard of such a thing and it is sickening to me to know that people who know you or not would even associate you with the actions of a sibling that you had no control or knowledge about anyway. If a kid fails math in the 7th grade and the younger sibling gets the same math teacher the following year, should he or she assume that younger sibling will surely fail, too?
It's just plain ignorant.
posted by
SpitFire70
on August 25, 2004 at 9:58 PM
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Ca88,
thank you sweet lovely lady.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:56 PM
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Talion, LOL.
I'll read that but I won't take back what I said.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:55 PM
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katray,
she's
lost jobs because of who her brother is, and though I've not encountered anything quite that extreme, there is lots of other stuff. So yeah it sure does feel like an affliction. But thank you for that last sentence, a bit of poetic beauty, as only you know how to reach my jaded soul.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:55 PM
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thanks, grouch.
"homicidal gene," now there's a concept. Perhaps they think more in terms of "mental illness" gene, I really couldn't say. Gor your email, thank you!
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:50 PM
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word.smith,
I like that saying.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:48 PM
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Quirky, I like you not your brother. Hell I don't even know him! Stay safe...
posted by
Ca88andra
on August 25, 2004 at 8:47 PM
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Quirk
Well, read this: Fixed Up: The Wrong F Word and maybe you won’t praise my common sense. It was not my finest hour.
posted by
Talion
on August 25, 2004 at 8:40 PM
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Oh Quirky, you and the other blogger are not isolated
by these life afflictions and experiences. Does feel like an affliction, eh? One you most certainly didn't know about or expect in even the darkest of nightmares. I know and that's all I can say. Except you are loved by all who have a heart that beats to the grace of God's design.
posted by
Katray2
on August 25, 2004 at 8:37 PM
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Well Talion,
then it appears that you have the sense to use the "common sense" God gave you!
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:35 PM
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Ariala,
I appreciate you saying that. The most revealing part of your comment, though is: "That's crazy and judgemental." Yes it certainly is, but there are plenty of those types of people walking around on this earth. Believe me, I know.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:27 PM
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inkwell,
he killed himself when I was 16, so I can only visit him in my mind. He is gone but not forgotten, though.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:25 PM
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Jemmie,
Oh, now I feel bad! I'm going to email you the rest of my comment.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 8:24 PM
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quirky
it never occurred to me that you might be afflicted with the same demons as your brother. not for a second. In considering the possibility after reading your post, I suppose the same environment could produce a similar behavior. in terms of genetics, it'd be your parents who'd have to pass on the "homicidal" gene. But I certainly can't buy any of that. I am sorry that you have suffered at the hands of those who think that the sins of the sibling must be carried by the others. tg ps check your 
in a few.
posted by
tbgroucho
on August 25, 2004 at 7:40 PM
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Quirky, we have a saying in Jamaica..
'Big finger never tell lie." It simply means that while we are pointing a finger at others, there's our thumb pointing right back at us. In the same way that we will all be accountable to God at the end of time, so too are we individually responsible for the things we choose to do.
posted by
word.smith
on August 25, 2004 at 7:33 PM
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Quirk
I love my brother, will kill or die for him, but I don't want to be held accountable for his actions. Right or wrong, he shouldn't be held accountable for mine. Why would I hold you accountable for yours? It isn't about kindness, it isn't about sweetness (though I'm glad that you think it is). It's about common sense.
posted by
Talion
on August 25, 2004 at 7:19 PM
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Train,
Well, I am very glad, too!!
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 6:14 PM
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MelodyStar,
thanks, I appreciate that.
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 6:14 PM
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SanitySlipping,
You not only "read it" but "got it." And no, you're not long-winded at all!!
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 6:13 PM
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I meant, taught him to play guitar...I don't even play the piano LOL
posted by
Ariala
on August 25, 2004 at 6:09 PM
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Quirky, very well written piece here. It never even crossed my mind that
you might be homocidal. I guess I take individuals individually.
I don't hold one person responsible for something they haven't done. That's crazy and judgmental. I have this friend. He's now 24. I've known him since he was eight years old. I even taught him how to play the piano. When he was in high school he got in with the wrong crowd, got drunk, robbed a joint and is now in jail until 2012. He's straightened out and we write to each other a lot. I've visited him in jail and will be there as a friend when he gets out. Unconditional love is just that.
posted by
Ariala
on August 25, 2004 at 6:08 PM
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I find the subject intriguing more than anything. If he were my brother, I'd visit him every chance I got. Blood is blood. The Bible says something to the effect that "he who turns his back on his own relatives is worse than an infidel."... 
posted by
cmoe
on August 25, 2004 at 5:41 PM
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Quirky...
I almost always read your entire posts, but this time I couldn't even make it past the first few paragraphs. I started crying--a blubbering idiot!
I know what it's like to have others look at you differently and judge you because of who you happen to be related to.
I HATE THAT!!!!!!
People look at you even worse sometimes when they find out who you're loyal to as a friend. I have this one kid in my life (well, he's an adult now) who has done some pretty awful stuff in his life. But I knew him before all of that! I used to babysit him and his baby brother. And to me his entire family is just a part of my own "extended" family. I am there for this kid no matter what! But when people find out what he's done and that I am still loyal to him, they tell me I am stupid. They think that I'll go off and do the same crap he's done just because I choose to love him still.
They don't understand that he's changed his life around. They don't understand that through all the bad times there were only two people who stuck by him: me and his Dad. They don't understand that he will always be there for me whenever I need him. They don't understand that even though we weren't born family members, we consider each other to be our own flesh and blood and that nothing--not one damn thing-- will ever break our fierce loyalty to one another.
Then there's my mom...I don't talk to her because it pains me too much, but if anyone else ever dare say anything about her, they have me to deal with. I have told me mother's own brother to go f**k himself after he cut her down and called her a slew of bad names. (Then again, I can't stand my mother's brother--and he is blood family. How sad.)
Enough now.
I know the rest of your post is great--they always are. But I don't think I'm strong enough to read it right now.
*hugs*
posted by
Jemmie211
on August 25, 2004 at 5:22 PM
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NICE WRITING, I AM GLAD THAT I AM READING YOU.
posted by
1965stories
on August 25, 2004 at 5:03 PM
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Do not worry yourself about what "those people" think. I think you are great. Good Post!!!!!!!
posted by
Melodystar
on August 25, 2004 at 3:41 PM
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Quirky:
Well, at least you know that I reading it correctly! And I do tend to be a bit long-winded don't I? Damn you Blogit! Brought out my higher brain functions! Arrgh!
posted by
SanitySlipping
on August 25, 2004 at 3:23 PM
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SanitySlipping,
No, that does not sound stupid at all! You said exactly what I did (or was trying to) in my last paragraph, just slightly longer and a bit differently. Thanks for your comment. ;-)
posted by
Julia.
on August 25, 2004 at 1:44 PM
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No,
I wouldn't be concerned that you 'could' be homicidal. And the reason for that is strictly sue to the fact that I believe ALL people 'could' be homicidal. We never know what really makes a person do that. Even when they tell us, it's never really and truly understood - or at least I don't think it is. I couldn't tell you if anyone in my family (aunts'uncles, etc) is or has been homicidal. I do know of a few extreme beatings that a couple of my aunts did to their husbands, but that doesn't mean the rest of the family should be suspect. No, I wouldn't worry if you were my neighbor or worked in the same building as me. People are people are people. We all have the potential to harm, maim, and kill - it's genetic. We're predators. But we also have the higher brain functions to resist it and that's what I count on and believe in. As long as you resist - you're not homicidal. Sounds stupid, but that's me.
posted by
SanitySlipping
on August 25, 2004 at 1:38 PM
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