Go to Sannhetseeker
- Add a comment
- Go to The Church Initially Did Not Believe in Original Sin
Westwend -
I think I see what you are saying. Adam's choice forced the introduction of laws onto humanity, so sin is the breaking of these laws. I'm going to have to think on that a bit . . .
posted by
sannhet
on November 29, 2004 at 9:24 AM
| link to this | reply
Y-L-F
Getting up and continuing on IS the important thing.
posted by
sannhet
on November 29, 2004 at 9:22 AM
| link to this | reply
everyone has sinned
I take a different tack about Adam.
might have nothinig to do with what you're trying to say.
Pauls homilies about sin in Romans sort of defines what I think.
Before the Law there was no sin.
By one man sin came into the world.
I've mentioned this in my posts. The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is The Law. We have a metaphor for humans devising systems of laws here -- a coming of civilization, if you will.
Lawgivers and keepers of the law are like gods, if you will.
something to think about.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 29, 2004 at 8:28 AM
| link to this | reply
I think it's good to make a conscious effort to avoid doing things badly, but we must not dwell too much upon the cause of our failures. No person who's walking ever intends to suddenly fall flat on their face, but it can happen. We only need the comfort, the strength, and the encouragement to get up again, and move forward in our walk.
posted by
TARZANA
on November 29, 2004 at 6:26 AM
| link to this | reply
Westwend -
I agree, though I would add that if Adam did something that "missed the mark" - moved him away from his target (a relationship with "God") then this could be a sin.
posted by
sannhet
on November 28, 2004 at 6:57 PM
| link to this | reply
Pappy -
I agree with the last part of your statement. I see sin as choosing to do something that takes me away from my relationship with "God". If I choose to do that, I am exercising my free will. That is true for everyone.
posted by
sannhet
on November 28, 2004 at 6:52 PM
| link to this | reply
adam couldn't sin
without the law there is no sin.
adding a third point into the debate
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 28, 2004 at 2:24 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet
I agree that when Christ said, "It is finished" that there is no more work required. It repaired the separation between God and men because the sin was forgiven, but it was not erased. Before then, continual sacrifices were required of the Jews. But in order for this work to cover MY sins, I must agree to it. My free will has not been removed, and so it is, I believe, for everyone.
posted by
pappy
on November 28, 2004 at 1:57 PM
| link to this | reply
Pappy -
What I was trying to show is that the division between the two - Augustine and Pelagius, is seen as the starting point of the change in the Church from one of "we are sinless" to one of "we are sinful". I think it is important to point out that Christianity has not always believed what is considered doctrine today - thus showing an evolution in thought with regard to God. And ultimtaley, offering the possibility of that evolution occuring again.
And I am still not convinced that there ever was a separation from God. If, as Yeshua/Jesus said, the kingdom is within, then have we ever really been separated?
posted by
sannhet
on November 28, 2004 at 12:56 PM
| link to this | reply
Sannhetseeker
<P>Pelagius' heresy was declared at the council of Carthage, and upheld by later councils for a number of reasons. That Adam's sins had no effect on his decendants was the least of them. He also taught: (1) that because of it, there was no need to baptise infants; (2) that by training of the will anyone could avoid sin and thus go to heaven; and (3) that grace is not a special and unmerited give from God.
<P>What, exactly, the effects of Adam's actions have on your and my present life is open to debate, but the path back into grace as outlined by the church is a remedy to the separation from God. Debating the cause of the separation does not change the need of a remedy.
posted by
pappy
on November 28, 2004 at 10:38 AM
| link to this | reply