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disagreeing some with Cantey, Pappy
it's hard deterining exactly what those common people believed
as I said, until around the time of Yeshua, the Jews could not conceive of an afterlife. There is a link in one of my blogs to an explanation that the concept of Hell in particular came from the Greeks, and the River Styx and the ferryman across it and Abydos and Charibdos the two headed dog and and underground.
probably the fires of hell were inspired by rifts in the surface that were caused by volcanic action and the molten lava could be seen and the sulfur smell could have been somewhat overpowering.
the New Testament itself says the Sadducees didn't believe in a resurrection, implying that Pharisees and others did -- but what was this resurrection? -- implies raising of the body doesn't it? I Cor. 15 -- that's what this chapter implies
not a soul going to heaven.
doesn't say exactly when either.
read it for yourself and decide
http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1Cr/1Cr015.html#top
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 3, 2005 at 3:00 PM
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they ( the local people) did believe in reincarnation in the new testement
times which is why people would ask Jesus if He was Elijah.
posted by
calmcantey75
on May 3, 2005 at 8:53 AM
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Pappy
there's only a hint of reincarnation in the New Testament
the Old Testament doesn't speak of a soul or ressurrection or any afterlife.
and the Sadducees didn't believe in an afterlife.
but one passage I re4fer to time and time again (I mentioned it in my blogs) is in one of Paul's Epistles, "It is God's will that all men be saved."
to me this means even the worst of us. Hitler even.
and this would take untold multiple lives to fulfill so that the person will eventually come to be fit for ultimate salvation.
I've mentioned it -- the generally accepted "Heaven and Hell" concept is a limited one. We are born, we live, we die and we either enjoy the "beatific vision" or we suffer for all eternity (personally I would think just hanging out on that sea of glass and looking upon that being in the center and stumming on a harp would be the ultimate bore, ergo suffering).
whereas, an evolving universe and evolving humanity and an evolving soul is much more apropos -- active, ever progressing, constantly changing, an entire future ahead of the individual.
but also, deferring to my son, Kooka, who doesn't see an afterlife at all, I must say we will only know once we die.
posted by
Xeno-x
on May 3, 2005 at 8:51 AM
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sannhet
I've heard it argued that certain teachings promoting reincarnation were left out by early church leaders so as not to confuse the converts. It was said that they were afraid people would not take seriously the need to 'change their ways' if they had many lifetimes to do it. With little evidence it sounds like conspiracy theory. If I were pressed for an answer, I would say that it is probably all very much more complicated than anything we know about. Reincarnation assumes a familiar timeline of past, present and future but I don't think that's how it works in higher dimensions. I'm like the cat trying to figure out the plumbing in this regard.
posted by
pappy
on May 3, 2005 at 5:19 AM
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Pappy -
In mine, and many others', interpretation, there are verses in the NT that speak to reincarnation. In John 9:2,when Yeshua's disciples ask him who had done wrong, the man born blind, or the his parents, this speaks to an acceptance of reincarnation. And Yeshua did not make a statement one way or the other about reincarnation. He said that in that particular instance, neither the man nor his parents had done wrong. It was a way to show "God's" powers.
Then, in Matthew 17:12-23, Yeshua tells his disciples that the prophet Elijah had been reborn as John the Baptist. He doesn't say it specifically, so they don't understand him at first, but later on in Matthew, when Jesus again says that Elijah has already come, they understand that he was speaking of John the Baptist.
I will admit that these, like so many other verses in the Bible, can be interpreted in a different way. But I find it fascinating that saints and other Church leaders believe in reincarnation. What do they know that would help them to believe? Was it part of Yeshua's secret teachings that St. Clement and others wrote about? And does the canonization of certain church leaders offer implicit acceptance of reincarnation?
posted by
sannhet
on May 2, 2005 at 7:41 PM
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sannhet
Like I said, reincarnation seems to answer a lot of questions, even cleans up some of the messy details about premature death in infants and those with genetic problems. I am certainly willing to forgive anybody for believing it and they could be just fine Christians as far as I'm concerned. With so little scriptural reference to go with, however, it does open a can of worms.
posted by
pappy
on May 2, 2005 at 5:06 PM
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