Go to I WRITE, THEREFORE I AM
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- Go to Are there really "some things normal, compassionate people cannot forgive?"
There may be a difference
between the way I hope I'd respond and the way I'd really respond. I hope I would grieve and then try to forgive. I might be hard. It might take a very long time. But... I think that is what God calls us to do.
posted by
calebs_blogger
on August 7, 2005 at 12:38 PM
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Human First
We are human first. I do not think it is in our human nature to automatically want to forgive someone who has inflicted pain. I think the people who can do this are exceptional. Even more exceptional are those who can forgive not only with words but within their heart to the point where they are willing to feel compassion and release their hurt. The gift of forgiveness is more powerful than anything else.
posted by
Divine_1
on August 7, 2005 at 10:16 AM
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I would take forgiveness over hatred any day.
posted by
Ca88andra
on August 7, 2005 at 3:41 AM
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forgiveness is forgiveness
and cannot involve conditions. The other person doesn't even to know that you forgive them, it is about freeing yourself for more love. Vib
posted by
Vibrance
on August 6, 2005 at 3:42 PM
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Quirky...
I agree with you. This woman is infected with unreasonable hatred. I also believe that forgiveness should apply to every situation. Hatred serves no-one and is itself an illness that can consume people. I also agree with the victims mother that your brother and her daughter were equally divine creations. The mistake many people make when considering forgiveness is confusing it with forgetting. I do not think we should forget, but it is imperitive that we be able to forgive. This may sound like a contradiction to the post I wrote, but it isn't. I have always been an advocate of forgiveness.
posted by
A_Norseman
on August 6, 2005 at 12:08 PM
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I've been in some very difficult circumstances over the
past 10 years. I've experience a lot of hate during that time, but I've come to realize that the saying is true that hating someone is like allowing them to live in your head rent-free, controlling everything that you do and keeping you in chains. I've had enough of that. I've decided to forgive and I'm still on that road.
posted by
word.smith
on August 6, 2005 at 11:58 AM
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Quirkyalone awarded for Excellence in Writing
posted by
Joe_Love
on August 6, 2005 at 11:30 AM
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Quirky, I have some trouble with this myself. I don't know if you've heard of Kansas City's infamous Bob Berdella or not but that case is personal to me. His very first victim was a 17 year-old boy who was lured to his home with a promise to help him work on his old car. This boy then disappeared. Even though his father suspected Bob Berdella, years passed and six other victims died horrible deaths before it was discovered that the father was right. This family was close to me. The boy had been in my home many times. I was his Sunday School teacher when he was young. His older sister was a very close friend. The family was devastated. I don't think that I have forgiven this man. Mostly, I just try not to think about it. He died in prison of a heart attack some years back and never voiced any remorse that I know of. For myself, I leave it in God's hands. For that family, It would take a miracle for them to ever reach the point of forgiveness.
posted by
TAPS.
on August 6, 2005 at 7:52 AM
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Your story sounds so similar to mine where the woman accusing my brother told lies about him in court and got him thrown back in the DT after he had finished his rehabilitation. I wanted to hate her, but then I realized that the poison she gave out was going to destroy me if I didnt' forgive her for what she did to my brother. The Lord knows though, and someday she will have to be held accountable for that, just as the woman who told lies about your brother will be held accountable for what she had done.
posted by
tigerprincess
on August 5, 2005 at 10:07 PM
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Quirky,
I believe that people who can forgive don't necessarily have to forget. Often, they never will but that's okay. If they can forgive, it lessens their own burden and the negativity around them. 
posted by
SpitFire70
on August 5, 2005 at 8:06 PM
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Quirky
What a wonderfully, fantastic composition this is! You somehow elicited inspiration, after confronting indignation. This is simply an
amazing posted work.
posted by
Joe_Love
on August 5, 2005 at 6:27 PM
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Quirky
You don't need to read stuff like that person wrote.
Some people are sicker than those who were so mentally ill they hurt people physically.
Those that can hurt us mentally are far more cruel and dangerous. Mental hurt lingers and lingers and lingers.
I have a sister who can kill mentally, with her tongue like a sword. I call her the scab picker. It is constant, every time she calls me.
So you forget that mean lady kiddo
posted by
WileyJohn
on August 5, 2005 at 6:09 PM
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Great, sensitive post, Ms. Quirky.....
MysticGmeKeeper...said it best...Very eloquent. I couldn't even find the words. She said it all.
posted by
MedusaNextDoor
on August 5, 2005 at 4:31 PM
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Unless she was family of a victim,
she has no need to be venting anything. Not that I believe anyone has a right to be that vindictive, anyway. It's just far more understandable coming from someone who actually suffered as a direct result of what your brother may have done.
The point is, if families of victims can find forgiveness, then surely the rest of the world can and ought to as well.
Forgiveness is not absolution; nor is it a condonement of actions. It's just an important first step in moving forward. Anyone holding onto hate is going ot be consumed by it; that's why forgiveness is such an important and necessary first step.
That person had no need to be talking about your brother that way; that's just wrong. She doesn't know a damn thing, and should probably be flogged...
Take care!
posted by
strat
on August 5, 2005 at 2:07 PM
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Forgiveness is unconditional, anyone who doesn't see this is incapable of true forgiveness. THe point of forgiveness is to heal ourselves, and the only way to heal our wounds is to accept them and let go. It is her problem to get over not yours.
posted by
Vanidad
on August 5, 2005 at 11:53 AM
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"just as precious in God's eyes as my little girl."
Quirky-girl
Wonderful post! Absolutely wonderful....and of course I agree with you:-) When you choose to view the world as black and white you eliminate humanity which dwells in only grey areas. I would suspect that woman will find it more difficult to feel God's forgiving embrace than yoru brother will...for she has turned her back on teh very principal of forgiveness
posted by
MysticGmekeepr
on August 5, 2005 at 11:10 AM
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quirky
my sympathies to you, but i am absolutley appaled by how this woman could have dreamt of being so nasty and cruel you should have sued her for slander BITCH!!!
posted by
mcbreeze
on August 5, 2005 at 9:36 AM
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First of all... I'm so sorry for your loss. I know from experience that bitterness and hate will close my heart. I know that forgiveness has always set me free. I know that peace on earth isn't possible without it. Thank you for your post. Sandi
posted by
Sandra_Harris
on August 5, 2005 at 8:07 AM
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It must have been very painful to read her comments. It sounds as though she is in a lot of pain and has her own inner turmoil. Don't take it to heart.
posted by
MsVision
on August 5, 2005 at 7:15 AM
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quirky
what i've discovered is that many people think that something is wrong with someone who loves unconditionally. they cannot see the reason why. but, there is no reason why. good post.
posted by
avant-garde
on August 5, 2005 at 7:12 AM
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Quirky
She sounds like she is full of loathing.. people like that are hard to deal with! They begin to believe themselves, and the message becomes stronger, spewing more hatred! Sad!
posted by
Offy
on August 5, 2005 at 3:12 AM
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About forgiveness
It takes a long time. My first husband took me to court, took my children away from me, brainwashed people who I thought were my friends and now that the kids are adults, I can see back over time, that he did them a lot of harm by not being there for them emotionally, he just made sure I lost what I loved most in life. I have struggled with that, and I've sincerely prayed that he gains wisdom and the ability to see the error in his ways. I know that I would never trust him any farther then I could throw him, but I pray that the empty void in his chest cavity grows a heart before he dies(no he's not ill), so he can make up to our children what he took from them. Is this forgiveness?By the way, that mess started with our seperation, in 1979. It takes time. You wanna know why he was able to take them? Because after our divorce I married a man of a different race. We moved and my daughter had to change schools in the middle of her kindergarten year.That , they said , showed an unstable home. That was it.
posted by
yafanna
on August 4, 2005 at 11:29 PM
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Hate and anger like that will
always find the one who owns it. Try to forget that hateful woman. Take care, and know that God will forgive anyone who asks. So why shouldn't we?
posted by
Whacky
on August 4, 2005 at 11:18 PM
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My prayers are with you
If you can possibly put that in prospective,please try. She was just a mouthy witch( -W +B ).That rage she diplayed in that blog or article? whatever, don't they call that projecting? sounds like she has no control over her own life and she can't stand for anyone else to be reasonable or at peace. A wise man once said to pray for those who spitefully abuse you and that will heap coals on their head. That witch ( -W+B ) needs peace and I hope she sees the error in her ideas. She will. And- If the book I'm reading is right, "Beyond The Broken Gate", your brother is in spirit form, going over his life review and learning what he'll need to know in his next life.According to this book, We are here only to learn and show compassion, love and empathy in all things. Maybe if you can believe in reincarnation it will help. This is a good place to excersize your demons. Good luck.
posted by
yafanna
on August 4, 2005 at 11:07 PM
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BTW Quirk,
Did you get my e-mail I sent about the trip? Shadow
posted by
Keshet
on August 4, 2005 at 10:37 PM
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Quirk,
There are many of folks out there who feel the same way. When my cousin's husband committed murder and given a sentence with parole in 15 years the families of the victims not only caused a major scene in the courtroom, but one threatened to get even by killing my cousin and her children in front of about 100 people including the judge. Shadow
posted by
Keshet
on August 4, 2005 at 10:33 PM
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Shadow,
I don't know what her story is or what has made her so hell-bent on taking out her rage on others...but I will say this...she's not alone in thinking that the woman who forgave my brother was wrong, she's just more outspoken about it than most.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 10:24 PM
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this is tough, i got struck on the face not because i bad mouth people who hurt me so much,, it's because i still bore hatred in my heart who caused me too much trouble in life... sorry about that, but i'm not in a position to say what is right or wrong, for i myself is in deep
trouble too with the way i feel up to now.
posted by
pakner
on August 4, 2005 at 10:18 PM
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Quirky,
I just keep thinking what made that woman so sour that she would deliberately inflict harm on innocent victims. Its just too sad that there are people who reap evil to satisfy their thirst for harm or revenge. Shadow
posted by
Keshet
on August 4, 2005 at 10:09 PM
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Ariala--
thanks. Peace back.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 10:00 PM
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katray--thanks--
yes I do feel pity for her along with many other emotions.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 10:00 PM
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UsualSuspect--
I'm not perfect, and I struggle with forgiveness also, all the time. I guess it's part of the human condition.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:23 PM
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Frankenkitty--
Thank you. It takes great courage to feel compassion for someone like the guy who is causing your and your family such pain.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:21 PM
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Justsouno--
Your last sentence is one of the truest statements I've read in a very long time. I would say I am 100% sure that it is exactly so.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:19 PM
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ZenLady--
Boy, if ever there were an example of someone who misunderstands what God wants, it would have to be your ex.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:18 PM
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Gypsy--
I am like you; it should be a personal decision that no one has the right to judge.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:17 PM
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krisles--
how very sad for all of those people. I feel for each of them, for different reasons. The couple that took the high road and made a decision not to let hatred destroy them, I feel bad because they were reviled for that. The couple that was consumed with rage, I feel bad that they cannot live in peace. Same for the wife and child who now must be in a living hell. Tragic all around.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:16 PM
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Jemmie--Yes, for sure. But I'll wager that she won't.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 9:12 PM
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Quirky, I'm with you all the way on this.
Peace.
posted by
Ariala
on August 4, 2005 at 7:36 PM
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Tragically powerful post Quirky...
Her hate is a cancer that she refuses to cure. Perhaps though, she can't at this point, because instead of seeking healing and peace early on, she allowed her wounds to ooze and fester and they are too far gone now? Mental imbalances as a result maybe..I feel some pity for her condition - what a waste of energy that could have been invested in honoring her lost one with the light of forgiveness and unconditional love...and how very tragic to someday depart this world burdened by such bitter baggage...My thoughts and reaction...again, powerful post.
posted by
Katray2
on August 4, 2005 at 7:33 PM
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This is a tough one...
for me personally I struggle with the forgiveness issue all the time. Forgiveness in general is becoming easier only because I realize that hate in and of itself is a poison that will consume and destroy you if you allow it. Still, though, sometimes forgiveness is really difficult and seems nearly impossible. No one wants to feel like a doormat or like they've been used or humilated. It's hard, but we all deal with it in different ways I suppose.
posted by
UsualSuspect
on August 4, 2005 at 7:13 PM
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If more people took mental illness seriously,
lives would be saved. People are so worried about spending their money to fix other peoples' broken children, but they don't see that the world isn't so big and we must share it. People think they can build gated communities and then they don't have to take responsibilty for the difficult side of humanity. As angry as I am about the guy my dad shot, in my heart I feel really bad for him because I know his life couldn't have been easy. I'm sorry you had to go through that in your life. It had to be hard and I'm really sorry.
posted by
Flumpystalls3000
on August 4, 2005 at 7:11 PM
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Forgiveness has been a central issue in my life. My ex (THE FATHER OF MY THREE CHILDREN) has not spoken to me in five years. He lives in the same town as I do and I see him on a regular basis as he pulls into the driveway to pick up one of the kids for dinner or something. One day, we stood almost side by side in the deli department of our local supermarket. He pretended not to see me. I said nothing, having been advised many times to stay at least 20 feet away from him. (He has anger issues). He use to INSIST that the kids go to mass each Sunday when they were with him. He would tell them that "It's the least you can do. All God expects from you is 1 hour a week. That's no so much to ask." They would go because they had no choice back then. Now that they are older they understand that going to church is the least important thing that "god" expects from them. What about forgiveness? They say nothing to him due to those "anger issues" I spoke of earlier.
Zen
posted by
ZenLady05
on August 4, 2005 at 7:01 PM
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Quirky...
I admit that I don't forgive easily or in some cases at all. However, I don't go out of my way to be vindictive and I would never trash someone else for forgiving someone of something I wouldn't.
posted by
RedHeadedGypsy
on August 4, 2005 at 6:50 PM
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frankk--
I find it interesting that most of the time (not always) the ones unable to forgive are non-religious, as she was.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 6:40 PM
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BrightIrish--
thanks for your comment...I don't harbor hatred for her, that would make me a hypocrite. And you are right, she must live a miserable existence.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 6:39 PM
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mmm-w,
that was my opinion of her as well, but I know (unfortunately) that there are people who agree with her.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 6:37 PM
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Quirky, I do not feel that man has the right to harbor hatred. But I am
not criticizing anyone, I am simply speaking as a Christian who believes the Lord's Prayer. It tells us to ask in proportion to our gift. Forgive us our sins and trespasses, Father as we forgive those who trespass against us. We can not have forgiveness from God in any greater capacity than we are willing to give. It is some times too difficult and we have to ask him to do it through us, to help us have the strength to forgive what we could never do on our own.
The woman who forgave your brother I am sure has a much freer life than the one raging.
posted by
Justi
on August 4, 2005 at 6:35 PM
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Quirky
A man I worked with for many years married a woman he's known and loved for many years whose daughter he also loved. Shortly after their marriage, the daughter was raped and murdered by a man. The man was married with a young child. He had also raped and murdered a teenage girl the prior year...it was a very high profile case in the metro KC area. My friend and his wife attended the trial daily and sat through all the testimony...it was such an ordeal. My friend's wife and her ex agreed to support a plea bargain in exchange for life versus the death penalty...I believe I am remembering all this correctly. My point in this tale is...my friend and his wife, the mother, did not feel it necessary for the man - he confessed - to die for the crime...they just wanted to make sure he could never be free to do it to anyone else. The other family, however...of the teenage girl from the year before..they were incensed that he could possibly live...they wanted vengence, and they took their anger out on my my friend and his wife...heated exchanges at the courthouse, yelling in front of the press....it was horrid. Two families....same crime...two completely opposite reactions. And then, consider the other victims...the wife and child of the man who commited the crimes.....like you and your family...never ending tragedy. I am so sorry this is such a never-ending and painful story for you.
posted by
Krisles
on August 4, 2005 at 6:30 PM
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Quirky
Great post, and I agree with you 100%. Hatred is a waste of time and energy. That woman needs to take a long, deep look at herself in the mirror.
posted by
Jemmie211
on August 4, 2005 at 6:26 PM
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Quirkyalone
I agree with you completely. That woman was talking about her own
personal hell "always and forever"..
posted by
frankk
on August 4, 2005 at 6:23 PM
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well she only serves to paint a poor reflection of herself, or atleast that would have been my oppinion
posted by
mmm-w
on August 4, 2005 at 6:04 PM
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I am so very sorry that you and your family had this experience and that your brother was so troubled. My brother was also a jail suicide ( or so they claimed) It would have angered me to read what this woman wrote but I do beleive that I would have forgiven her after I cooled down a little and realized her lack of empathy and the terrible existance she must have within herself. I'd take forgiveness over that anyday!
posted by
BrightIrish
on August 4, 2005 at 6:00 PM
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mmm-w,
No clue what her agenda was other than to rant about how forgiveness was a pile of crap, and to use this as her example.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 5:55 PM
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blackcat--
no one has the right to judge anyone!! I'm mostly angry with her because she wrote so many lies and passed them off as truth.
posted by
Julia.
on August 4, 2005 at 5:53 PM
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its definatly not a situation that any of us outside of it are capable of judging but i don't understand... she is just some random person who isn't involved at all? what is her agenda? who is SHE to pass judgement on this mother? THAT enfuriates me....
posted by
mmm-w
on August 4, 2005 at 5:52 PM
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Quirks.... That's a tough one to answer... I don't know how I'd feel...
But regardless, it doesn't sound like it's her situation to judge.
posted by
-blackcat
on August 4, 2005 at 5:46 PM
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