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Thank you very much for reading my piece on Aids in the Cameroons and I want to apologise for reacting late. Aids is really a problem in the whole of Africa. At first, specialists felt that it was only in black or sub-saharan africa that the scourge was rfit. but it has been discovered that, it is causing the same ravages in the north of the continent as well. As for Sierra Leon, the rate of those infected is very minimal and could be controlled.However since the officials are corupt and are certainly diverstying vital funds that would have gone into the health sector, into their own private pocket added to the merry-go -rounds of civil wars, it won't be surprising if the percentage of those infected increases. Nonetheless in the main time the infection in Sierra Leon is very minimal.
posted by
Flame-thrower
on October 3, 2005 at 12:38 AM
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Ariel,
Excellent job with the post. I have a couple myself. Where is there positive evidence of a Garden of Eden? No archaeological evidence. Why are there three different life stories told in the NT about the teacher Jesus, especially the Sermon on the Mountain stuff? Each book tells a different story. So who is actually right? Why didn't the Chinese civilization record a great flood? They had a written language at that time. There was no mention of a flood. If God didn't allow people to be saved until Jesus arrived, then were those who died before Jesus automatically sent to hell since supposedly no one was actually forgiven or saved until the NT?
O.K. the Christian replies: "Faith is the answer, we are not suppose to challenge the teachings of God, but believe on faith alone." That's like the proverty stricken individual believing he/she will win the $50 million lottery with a $1.00 purchased ticket.
It is not my intent to judge others for their beliefs. I'm just asking why we can't fully validate EVERY story of the Bible. Do notice I said "every story". There is a ton of archaeological evidence to validate many events of that era.
People tend to forget that there are religious scholars and archaeologists who have as much intense knowledge of the biblical teachings as the priests, ministers, and pasters who lead the churches. The difference is that thoses religious scholars and archaeologists make it their life's work to prove through scientific data what the churches teach on faith alone.
We also tend to forget that those who lived during the time of Jesus did not have our modern technology, nor did they live with a Wally World right down the road. The average person had no formal education. He didn't live in much more than a mud hut if he was lucky. The majority of people never ventured 25 miles past their birth place and I'm giving credit for this much distance. The general population area of the route of Jesus was around 10,000 people who salvage a living out of a few goats and fishing. Jesus didn't hop a plane like a political candidate and spread his teachings over the entire Middle East. Evidence shows he stayed chiefly within a fifty to seventy-five mile radius of his birthplace. It was his 12 followers who actually spread the stories, yet they did so by word of mouth because folks these men themselves could not read nor write. How could they when the majority had no way to learn. How many were fishermen? Three or four? Fishermen had no reason to gain any formal education. What were they going to use it for? Teach fish?
Yes, someone did write down the stories, then the stories were translated probably a 1,000 times in a 1,000 ways hundreds of years after the event by civilizations with scholars/priests who had formal education and spoke a different language. They found the documents. Problem here was the original documents were written in a dead language. So tell me how many of these stories were translated properly word-for-word from the original? Impossible! Over 90% of the languages we know of today did not excist during biblical times.
O.K. folks, I'm just attempting to have you think about a few things outside the general argument here that I've thought about. I don't propose that any person is right or wrong. I respect each person's personal opinion to believe what they feel is right for them.
Thanks, and my apology this is so long. Shadow
posted by
Keshet
on October 2, 2005 at 7:42 PM
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Ariel
You may have heard me say this before (grin) but I was raised Catholic. I went to Catholic school from 1st through the 8th grades. We were always asking the nuns to explain the inconsistencies in the bible. We would either get 'The bible is not a history book." or "You have to have faith." With that said, am I a Christian? I would say that depends on whose definition you choose. I believe I live my life by Christian values but in reality I think it makes more sense that Jesus was a mortal and not God in human form. Do I believe in God? That's also not easy to answer. I believe that when we die, there is more. I believe we exist beyond our physical bodies. I guess I believe in a more buddhist philosophy. I am also a 'practicing' homosexual. (You know what they say, 'practice makes perfect'.) What's interesting to me about the extreme right wing christians stand on this. You would think a man loving another man (consensually) and a woman loving another woman (consentially) is a sin worse than murder. Anyway, good post.
posted by
DebbieDowner
on October 2, 2005 at 6:56 PM
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You missed the most important question!!!!!
Was Mary a virgin? If one accepts that premise, then anything is possible.
posted by
fwmystic
on October 2, 2005 at 4:09 PM
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Tapsel
Thank you for your apology. It was very gracious of you, and I thank you. I can honestly say that if I think that others are distorting my words I am more saddened than offended.
The past is water under the bridge, and I hope that we can be friends, and continue the discussion
No, please don't avoid Opinions, and do send comments, for it is important that reasoned and rational discussion continues
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 1:38 PM
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ariel70, I really should stay away from the category of Opinions and bloggers posts on Religion and Spirituality. I'm getting too short in my old age and I don't mean in stature. I know that I have offended you and I can understand why. I will try not to do it again.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 2, 2005 at 1:31 PM
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Hemlocker
Thank you for your nice comment.
Thank you also for your continuing interest in my work, and your support outside it. it is very much appreciated.
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 12:42 PM
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Gomedome again
Anyway, I'll have to get back to researching and writing other posts to do any/many more on that subject. I've go a few articles to submit too, so I just won't have the time
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 12:29 PM
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gomedome
Oh, I must say that the reaction so far has been about what I expected. Disappointed? No, I've been there and done that too many times, and my respect for the views of moderate Christians will survive intact.
Thank you for your comment, and your friendship
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 12:27 PM
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ariel70 -- a few postings into your attempt to open a mature and reflective
dialogue, you must be asking yourself if it is worth the effort? I sense a sincere attempt on your part at gaining clarification, of understanding the beliefs of others and of expanding food for thought amongst all participants to your postings but the underlying theme versus the reality will become 2 decidedly different things. I guess this is a warning of sorts, as foolish as I feel imparting caution to a man a generation my senior, but be prepared for extreme dissapointment in this avenue of dialogue.
posted by
gomedome
on October 2, 2005 at 12:20 PM
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Reni
Thank you for your long and interesting comment. You did at least answer the question as to how you personally regard the place of homosexuals within the church. Framed in your usual courteous and tolerant manner of course, as was only to be expected from you.
I can never understand why people are so touchy about their religious, or other beliefs, and defend them with such aggression. After all, we are on the same path, arent we? Or are supposed to be
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 12:14 PM
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Tapsel and CB Andrews
Tapsel, at no point in my post did I state or imply that all Christians are " crazy fundamentalists, nor did I attempt to prove such an insulting and outrageous belief.
You state, rightly, that there is no " proof" in either side of the argument, that you state categorically that God will, or will not, guide me to the truth. How can you make such a statement?
And, with respect, you are both perfectly capable of answering the questions of how YOU regard the belief that humans are created in God's image, and how YOU regard Christian practising homosexuals.
It is sad that my sincerely held wish that my post might induce Christians to subject their own beliefs to rigorous scrutiny should fall on such stony ground in your two cases. It is also sad that you do not realise that Christian charity does not consist solely of donating money, but extends to listening to, and respecting the views of others.
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 12:06 PM
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Amen
Amen Tapsel T
posted by
CB_Andrews
on October 2, 2005 at 11:45 AM
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Ariel70, you will note that I put the word "proof" in quotation marks because I did notice that you offered no proof or disproof. But, the post definitely seemed to lean toward that intent. If you do have a real desire to know the truth and seek for it with all your heart, God promises that you will find. There are no answers that I can give you that would suffice. God's Holy Spirit will supply all that you need if you have that desire.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 2, 2005 at 11:40 AM
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hmmmm....Interesting questions...And may I thank you for asking questions, rather than pointing out all shortcomings and "bashing" Christians as other ahtiests on this site seemt revel in doing? They seem more interested on getting on some intellectual high horse rather than actually seeking anything. But I digress...
As for us being in God's image... I'd say that's more metaphorical than anything. We represent him in spirit, not body. And of course we are not going to be EXACTLY like him. For example, I have three children. Everyone of them was created in my image (and that of my hubby), yet no single one is a mirror image of us. They each posess their own physical traits and psychological characteristics unique to them. Sure they are created BY me and LIKE me, but they can never be the same.
As for God being different now (less harsh) than the God depicted in the Old Testament.... That I think, bears reflection of the authors of the different books of the Bible. Since this was before Jesus, they focused more on the punishments of God, rather than the life after death that Jesus promised. The NT focuses on the second coming and baptism (or second life). Now, I'm not an expert, but that's how I've always understood it.
And homosexuality...Well, the Catholic Church does not accept it on ANY levels (pedophiliac priests not included lol), so I don't see much acceptance around my parts. However, I don't personally have difficulty accepting homosexuals and reconciling that to my faith. I just think of one passage, "...Judge not lest ye be judged..." My point? Well, even we of the "straight" persuasion are guilty of sin on a daily basis. Who am I to say that a homosexual is going to hell and I'm not? Although this does go against the express beliefs of my church...
Let's not forget one thing which I think atheists AND Christians overlook on a regular basis. Christianity is not an end. Christianity is a means. Christianity is a journey that some choose. Along that journey we make mistakes, commit sins, and live our lives. But through it all we look to God and ask for guidance. It's that simple.
Excellent questions.
posted by
Renigade
on October 2, 2005 at 11:40 AM
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Tapsel
If you had read my post properly you would surely have seen that I made no attempt to prove, or disprove the existence of God. IN the first part, I state clearly that Christians are as likely to be right or wrong in the views as I.
I asked the perfectly legitimate question ( and others) as to how present day Christians feel about being created in God's image.
it sems clear to me that you are interpreting my writings through the prism of you own views, which I find discourteous. I respect your sincerely held beliefs, and I expect the same courtesy from you and other Christians. I also note that you make no attempt to answer the questions
posted by
ariel70
on October 2, 2005 at 11:32 AM
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Ariel70, there is a difference between posing questions in a spirit of respectful enquiry and having a burning desire to know the truth. I can tell that you have put a lot of thought into your attempts to disprove that there is God. So, God promises to let you have your way and your mind will never realize the truth of the mysteries of God. No one will be able to help you understand. Their answers will only support your "proof" that they are crazy fundamentalists.
posted by
TAPS.
on October 2, 2005 at 11:19 AM
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Ariel70
My, you covered a lot of ground in this one so please bear with me and any others who will try to answer all of your questions.
God did make man in His Own image. He gave us the intelligence to think, to act, to do these things voluntarily (free will), and knowingly. He gave us the opportunity to choose right from wrong, just as He did the angels. Lucifer and his minions chose wrong and we all know what happened to them. We are in His image as humans with souls, with thinking reasoning minds. Yes, we all look different, come from different races, different cultures, etc., but we are mirror images just as those of us who have children do not have mirror images in our children. Those children are made in our images, though. You see the similarities in features, personalities, likes, and dislikes. We are made in His image, we are not clones. We are nothing without God, we have been created by Him, we are not infinite. We will live on into eternity but we had a beginning. When we reach Heaven, we will be completely happy and fulfilled and will have no need to want to create other creatures or to actually be gods for, if we chose to try to be gods, we would be as Lucifer and the rest of the fallen angels. They started out in Heaven and were cast from there, we will attain Heaven as our just reward if we live our lives truly striving for Heaven and will already have made our choice whether we want Heaven or hell.
Our boundaries are limited by the range of our senses here in our earthly lives. There are some things which are mysteries to us, will always be mysteries to us in this world, and that we have to take in faith. In the Bible on more than one occasion God calls Himself "I AM". This is the proof that he is infinite, had no beginning and will have no end. While we are on this earth, it is our role to constantly seek God and His mercy and to strive to know Him better. This constant striving through prayer and constant learning draw us closer and closer to Him if we do it from the heart, meaning if we are doing it in earnest and not for show. Once we attain Heaven we will have the understanding in its entirety.
Yes, God has a human form in His Son, Jesus Christ, who was born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried, rose again from the dead, ascended into Heaven where He sits at the right hand of God the Father.
The God of the Old Testament is the same God of the New Testament. In the Old Testament, in humanity's infancy, people did not, for the most part read or write, they had cultures that developed from the beginning of time, and who did not live in the same type of civility as we have in the New Testament. God helped His chosen people so that they would multiply, His son would come to earth through one of the lines of the chosen people (the line of David), yet He loves every one of us, His creations. People as thinking, reasoning human beings have been the ones to chose to kill, make war, and masacre, torture, and all other horrible things. God dealt with them in a manner which they could understand and after giving them ample warning that He was not pleased. His Son, the Redeemer, had not yet come and lived among us to die and redeem us.
Yes, we have to suffer in reparation of our sins, and we are all sinners. His Son suffered and died, though He had no sin, Himself, for our sins, so that we could still attain Heaven. If He was stern and retributive, as you have indicated, He would just have cast us all into the depths of hell and said the hell with it.
He gives us chance after chance after chance to redeem ourselves and not to live in sin. If we choose to continue to live in sin and never repent, it is our choice to go to hell. God is so loving, though, that even after a life of sin and rejection of God, if we tell Him we are sorry and we mean it, he will forgive us and, though we must be purified in Purgatory (which not all Christians accept) before we finally reach Heaven. If we make it to Purgatory, we know then that we will make it to Heaven.
Why must we be purified? Think of it in human terms. When children are growing up, we must discipline them for them to learn right from wrong. When they do something wrong, they must face the consequences, whether it be a spanking, having to sit in time out, or natural consequences like getting burned when we touch something hot after being told not to.
God was not created by man, but many of a lot of men's ideas about God are of man's creation. Many men (as in mankind) pick and chose what is easier for them to follow, whether it is what they make of God or the Bible. When man chooses to haughtily reject any part of God or the Bible, man is choosing to be a god himself and suffers the consequences just as Lucifer and the rest of the fallen angels.
You are so right, ariel70, when you say "the Bible is not nor should it ever be - a menu, from which one selectes the items that one likes, and rejects those that one doesn't. And surely to reject one section of the Bible is to undermine beliefe in the whole."
On the subject of homosexuality, that in itself is not wrong, what is wrong is acting on it, just as it is wrong for a man and a woman to have sex without benifit of the marriage bond between them. Promoting homosexuality and the acts of it is wrong and promoting sex between a man and a woman without benefit of marriage is wrong. One is not more wrong than the other. They are both grave sins. The Church should and does welcome anyone, just as Jesus sat at table with the likes of the lowlifes, tax collectors, and prostitutes, not condoning their ways of life but to show them the way to eternal life. Allowing homosexuals, prostitutes, and other criminals into our churches is what Jesus would have done as long as it is with the understanding that we, all of us, be sorry for our sins and promise to do our best not to repeat those sins.
No church, that is truly a church, would knowingly accept a practicing serial killer, pedophile, or thief as pastor. The Church does not condone homosexual relations, non-marital relations but if those guilty of it are truly sorry and promise from their hearts not live that way and avoid near occasion of sin, they are welcomed into the Church. They are not accomplices of sin for that. They would be accomplices of sin if they welcomed people who choose to live in those ways who were unrepentant of those sins and had no intention of changing their ways.
No true Christian (those who know Him and love Him) would ever modify their image of God for their own convenience. Only those who know Him and merely use His Name would do that.
I hope I have adequately been able to clear up for you these troubling questions. I am no theologian or scholar, but I have deep faith and have explained things to you to the best of my ability.
posted by
RAME
on October 2, 2005 at 10:54 AM
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arial70
The depth of your scholarly wisdom and erudition of expression humbles me. I feel, however unfortunate that may be, that the ones who really need to read this will not, or if they do, they will not understand or will not permit themselves to understand. I believe there are many young and even older seekers out there who are not yet frozen in their beliefs, for whom this could be among the things that change their lives for the better. Be well, my friend--and keep writing.
Hemlocker
posted by
Hemlocker
on October 2, 2005 at 10:39 AM
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