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sassy
Yes indeed. But personally, despite my atheism, I find bad writing about religious matters -- especially purportedly deeply held religious convictions -- more offensive than secular writing. It's all a matter of respect
posted by
ariel70
on May 30, 2006 at 2:14 PM
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Aren't bad writers everywhere?
Its just that some of us are more ready to admit to it then others.
posted by
Sherri_G
on May 30, 2006 at 2:06 PM
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Ariel70
Ooops! One dog bites and a thousand bark.
posted by
bilbilis
on May 29, 2006 at 1:43 PM
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ariel70 - in reading this post and the comments left on it
One point seems not to be covered by others. (or I could have missed it)
That being; in any group, the loudest and most vocal are not necessarily the most articulate.
posted by
gomedome
on May 29, 2006 at 1:09 PM
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Ariel, I respect you for your lifelong affair with the English language.
I also respect your open mind for Christian messages as an atheist.
posted by
una01
on May 29, 2006 at 12:27 AM
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Ariel,
I tend to stay way from debates about religion. But then, this is not really about religion, although some of those commenting seem to think it is, but merely about poor writing. I am an agnostic, but respect Christians and feel very much part of the Judeo-Christian tradition which is so fundamentally part of our Western culture. Like you, I am in love with our marvellous language, and cringe when I encounter bad writing, even when, or I should say especially when it’s my own. Because I do not always write well, for any number of reasons, even when writing about matters I am deeply interested in. I recognize and appreciate good writing, but there are armies of writers whose mastery of the language I will never attain. Some of the best writers, for example Conrad and Nabokov, to name but two, did not even learn English until well into their early adulthood.
Yes, some of the Christians here write poorly, but so do many others, and since you have stirred up the Christian hornets’ nest, let me poke my stick at another one: that of our friends on the Left. While it is not necessarily the case out there in the ‘real’ world, here on Blogit I have found that the farther they are in ‘left field’, the poorer their writing.
You have termed some of the writing efforts some of the Christians shameful. That judgment is based on the assumption that they know they are writing poorly, which may not always be the case. To paraphrase a famous Biblical passage, ‘the Lord will forgive them for they know not what they are doing.’
I also believe that it is inherently difficult to write or even speak well of matters of faith, since faith and reason are uneasy in one another’s presence. That, however, is a topic better left for another day.
posted by
Nautikos
on May 28, 2006 at 7:48 PM
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Ariel70
You have left me no other choice than to take up your comments page with rebuttal. You opened this can of ugly worms. You are drawing doctrinal rants that are not correct and have nothing to do with the writing of the Christians, but more about their lack of intellectual savvy. You have drawn disparaging remarks about the character and intelligence of the Christians, totally inappropriate. I personally would not open a post on here discussing the letter of the law because lawyers on here were not writing well. I am not astute enough in the law to do so. But here I rest my case. Taps said it well. Taps has it covered! May God get the Glory!
posted by
Justi
on May 28, 2006 at 5:17 PM
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Pat B
Please excuse me. I am one of those Christians who is not paranoid, just not a happy camper when we are talked about like so much flotsams that can not not hear or see. I also do not feel put upon, I am not an ignorant ranting idiot as your comment makes me appear. I do like facts. I do like them very much. This stuff printed in some of the comments are not facts, I don't like that. I also believe as do many scholars that Seventh Day Adventists are a cult. Can they not see in the new testament when Christ says not day is more important than another, if you are under the Blood of the new covenant. That group appears to pick and choose favorably those parts they like and leave off the others. As far as being ignorant, oppressed etc., I am a college graduate, with a degree in psychology, which is of absolutely not value in my study of the Holy Bible and my life as a Christian. Nor am I blind. I have read some of your writing and I must say I am surprised at these comments of yours.
posted by
Justi
on May 28, 2006 at 5:09 PM
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twelve 12
I would be interested in knowing what translation of the Holy Word you are using to find such a Scripture. The Scriptures do say that even Satan knows there is one God trembles. But as for one knowing about Christ and his position in the world being a definition of a Christian comes from some Scripture outside the Canonized Word of God.
posted by
Justi
on May 28, 2006 at 4:56 PM
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Ariel
Well written.
posted by
avant-garde
on May 28, 2006 at 2:59 PM
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Arial70
I love your work and you as my blogging brother. No I do not think God spoke in Hebrew. I do know the original manuscripts were written in Hebrew. A language dead for centuries and is now revived. Re-read me. I did not suggest anything about re-doing Shakespeare. I do think Old English is so stilted and stuffy it is incredibly like wearing a Queen Victoria dress with her black mourning jewelry. I dare say some of the near naked ladies of this day could add a bit of it but not so stuffy.
posted by
Justi
on May 28, 2006 at 11:51 AM
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You are necessary!
Ariel, you are not an atheist. An atheist is not at all aware of the living and sovreign God in His Holy and Supreme place . Your interest in Christ and His proper presentation in earth is the definition of a christian. I appreciate your comments because it is your ministry to make sure that we, as ambassadors of Christ with His credentials to present, must handle the matter with dignity, honesty, and in truth.
posted by
twelve12
on May 28, 2006 at 8:22 AM
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The language
Ariel, your interest is what is needed to increase your commitment. Concerning your write-up here, the english language is not sufficient in itself to represent or interfere with any message of the Holy and True God the creator. His Spirit alone is the sufficiency. His Spirit can annoint any form of proper or poor grammar in any language, not only the english language, that will unlock the heart, mind and soul of all living creatures. He is the perfection that you are searching for. The human love that you now practice should suffice such that you would not find fault in any human interactions - proper or improper. Therein lies the mystery!
posted by
twelve12
on May 28, 2006 at 8:06 AM
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Well, Ariel...
I think you stuck your grammatically correct foot in it. You've riled the Christians. It's not a logical thing, it's strictly emotional, and it doesn't matter what the factual reality may be. Most Christians I've known seem a bit paranoid.
They seem to feel like they're an oppressed minority even though vast majority of people in America are Christians. I noticed this as a member of a congregation, and also among other friends, family, co-workers, etc. When I was seven or eight years old Grandma Lucy, a devout Seventh Day Adventist, told me they couldn't let a Catholic become president because he'd make everyone go to church on Sunday instead of the Sabbath. This was in the late 1940s -- she went on and on about it for weeks worrying and praying.
When I was grown up, a Roman Catholic was elected and it made no difference: the Seventh Day Adventists could still observe their sabbath day.
As for the use of good grammar, Grandma Lucy spoke in the poetic language of the King James Version. She used words like "spake" and thee and thou, and used them correctly. She had a third grade education, women didn't need more than that to raise kids and keep house, but she could read and quote the Bible as well as any scholar. In her eighties she wrote many stories of her life: literate, clear, (if run on) sentences that painted word pictures of life at the turn of the 20th century.
So it's not lack of education or passion. It's carelessness that makes some of us write badly. Or should that be bad?
posted by
Pat_B
on May 28, 2006 at 7:59 AM
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Ariel70, I think perhaps that what this post emphasizes to me is that God is no respecter of persons. There are Christians rich and poor, highly intelligent and mentally handicapped. There are Christians that are lazy and those that strive for the highest in any endeavor. God accepts and loves them all. Whatever we have, God can and will use it to his glory. Let's compare, for a moment, the posts of Ariala regarding her faith to the worst of the worst that you have read and of which you complain. The one might give you pause to consider the message while the other turns you off. But, there just might happen to be a reader who might not be able to relate in any way to the highly intelligent writings of Ariala that may be touched by the message of the illiterate. Who can know the mind of God and how he works in the hearts of man. By the way, I dearly love the KJV. It is always my choice for reading for myself. But, when I share, I usually share from a more modern translation because not everyone has 68 years of KJV under their belt.
posted by
TAPS.
on May 28, 2006 at 7:54 AM
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Jane
Thanks for calling in. Yeah, I guess to err is to be human
posted by
ariel70
on May 28, 2006 at 7:23 AM
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Justi
I shan't deal with your comment at length here, 'cps I'm writing another post that'll deal with it. But two things : I didn't think or say that you were suggesting simplifying Shakespeare, as you state.
You ask : do I think that God spoke proper English. Obviously I don't, and you yourself cannot possibly imagine that he spoke the meaningless twaddle that so many of today's church leaders peddle. Did He speak today's management-speak?
Did He even speak in words at all?
Enjoy you day, amiga
posted by
ariel70
on May 28, 2006 at 7:22 AM
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Ariel70
You have attempted to clarify an important point. Allow me to help you. Shakespeare and God are different beings. I have made no attempt nor suggestion to change Shakespear. Clarity is totally what we need in the Faith, understanding not flowery verbose beauty. The clarity about Him, God. Not the beauty of the language. What do you think He spoke? Proper English?. Maybe you have not toyed much with Hebrew, it is great. No vowels and it works beautifully although some dots and dashes have been added later to show emphasis of vowel sounds. I meant what I said and that is the truth of the faith... Having it not showing it off as a newly trained race horse. You might enjoy studying the ancient language of the Bible more even than Shakespeare. You see Shakespeare's work remains in what it was written in... English! The Bible was not written in English!
posted by
Justi
on May 27, 2006 at 7:25 PM
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It's posts like these that keep folks such as myself . . .
humble.
Thanks for pointing out those foibles; I'm certain they are deserved. And yes, I would agree that God deserves my very best. Does my writing reflect that? Not always.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on May 27, 2006 at 7:08 PM
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We're trying to improve with more practice. Lol.
(B)
posted by
A-and-B
on May 27, 2006 at 6:13 PM
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ariel70
I love atheists, they are so knowledgeable about Him in whom they have no belief.
You,ve just got to be a Brit with this great rant on poor writing.
For a moment there I could hear me own Manchester mum.
posted by
WileyJohn
on May 27, 2006 at 6:09 PM
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ariel
I don't like to get into the religious blogs......my commitment to Christ is my personal contract and I am comfortable with it.
Since I don't participate, if I may, let me toss this out for your consumption. Could it be that they are so concerned about what the response is going to be to what they say.........it impacts on how they say it?
We are bombarded in this country with so much information about how bad the Christian Right is when it comes to politics and social issues.......could it be that the pressure of wanting to be accepted moves them to be overly cautious in what and how they say things?
posted by
Corbin_Dallas
on May 27, 2006 at 4:32 PM
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ariel,
As a Christian, I attempt to show reverence and respect when writing about God. Not all Christian bloggers are bad writers.
posted by
Amanda__
on May 27, 2006 at 3:07 PM
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Ariel70,
"Toilers of the vineyard of the Lord," I love that! You are so witty and urbane I've seen many debates on this subject on the blog, participated in a few, and swore off due to the ill manners of all concerned, sometimes my own included.
However, "enthusism" (which literally means "filled with the spirit of God," en-theos- etc), may be only a mild form of the urgency. However, I do agree that when one calms down, it is better to edit and let wiser heads prevail, one's own included.
posted by
Blanche.
on May 27, 2006 at 2:35 PM
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Justi again
Forgot ; thanks for the link, I'll read it tomorrow, and let you know what I think
posted by
ariel70
on May 27, 2006 at 2:24 PM
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Blanche and Justi
Blanche
Yes, indeed, I take you point. In fact I made the point, of writers " toilers in the vineyard of their Lord" being enthusiastic, but to me there is no excuse for poor writing about such a serious subject as one's religious beliefs.
Of course, one can excuse poor writing from someone that one had read often, and has clearly had a poor education. I admire such people for putting their feelings in the public area.
Justi
The newer versions of the Bible may well be superior in ease of comprehension, but quality of language is something else. Any proposal to " simplify", say Shakespeare to make it easier for people to digest would be laughed to scorn. Where would the power of his language be, if set in a modern idiom.
You had unwittingly put your finger on one of the prime causes of the delcine if the Western Christian churches ; the magic and the mystery has been babished for the sake of a spurious clarity.
posted by
ariel70
on May 27, 2006 at 2:23 PM
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Ariel70,
I won't presume to speak for anyone else, but solely for myself. I've noticed variations in my style, when writing. When I am upset, excited, agitated, or confused, my writing had that same quality you describe: lack of clarity, punctuation, and paragraphs. It was simply a spewing forth of my thoughts as fast as my hands could type, raw and unedited.
I can only assume that others do that as well. However, as I become calmer, clearer, more focused and more determined to be understood, my literacy and ability to express myself more fluently and cogently returns.
I am no biblical scholar myself, my conversion to Christianity at this point in my life, a few years go, in my early 40s, was solely as a result of my experiences. I could look up the quote, but I'll paraphrase Paul's conversion from Saul of Tarsus to Paul, when he wrote "When we are out of our minds it is for God's sake, when we are in our right minds it is for your sake". There is speculation that Paul was epileptic, I suspect he may have been what is now referred to bipolar or manic, which has what are referred to as delusions, but delusions may also be referred to as ecstatic or euphoric visions ro a non-believing world.
So, without speaking for anyone else, there is my take, and also lack of education may play a role as well, but I can't use that excuse.
posted by
Blanche.
on May 27, 2006 at 2:15 PM
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Ariel70
Well I guess I am off to school now!
One thing I take issue with, "The King James" version of the Holy Bible. It is not better, not as clear to the reader today as say a NLT version. Christianity is growing by leaps and bounds in places like China, South America and India. They are not having to have the KJV but the latest translation of their own language. We should do the same. In fact the NLT is the closest to the original transcripts of any I am told.
I do appreciate your tenacity for our quality representation of our Lord.
Here is my latest, actually it is the work I am interested in more than the writing. Were I a boxer, I would not be able to knock out my opponent with a well written upper cut. Or would I?
http://www.blogit.com/Blogs/Blog.aspx/Justsouno_3/
posted by
Justi
on May 27, 2006 at 2:14 PM
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Mam'selle
To be honest, it isn't as bad as it was with the crop of Christian writers who've now left.
posted by
ariel70
on May 27, 2006 at 2:12 PM
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I hadn't noticed that, actually ...
I mean, I've certainly witnessed a lot of lousy writing here ... but I didn't realize it usually fell along denominational lines. That's weird. I'll have to try to pay more attention in the future.
"Happy first official day of summer (where applicable)!"
posted by
Mademoiselle
on May 27, 2006 at 2:08 PM
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