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arGee - and again - that is the extent of my contention
I have found that almost all conspiracy theories concerning the assassinatioin of JFK make leaps of conjecture and speculation. I routinely dismiss most of them because of this. ..... The Oswald/Russian connection is a little different. You are presenting it as speculation and I tend to agree with the possibilities.
posted by
gomedome
on November 20, 2006 at 1:54 PM
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As you well know, Gome...
Your argument is very compelling.
Incidentally, do you know that (1) Oswald knew a lot about the U-2 overflights because of his posting in Turkey; (2) He offered this information to the USSR in exchange for asylum; and (3) the Soviets shot down Gary Powers shortly after they received the information from Oswald? I have been unable to prove an actual causal connection, but these three events are accurate. Could it have been coincidence? Sure. Was it coincidence? Probably not. We may never know.
posted by
arGee
on November 20, 2006 at 1:45 PM
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arGee - Jack Ruby doesn't even enter into my perspective
I believe that he was as described; a man compelled by emotion and feelings of inadequacy that seized the moment. My contention is based on what is depicted in the drawing below:
There is nothing in the human body that will change the vector of a 6.5mm high velocity round that dramatically (as hypothesized by the round entering JFK's back and exiting his throat area) when fired from that distance. Further, even though the proposed magic bullet had supposedly lost velocity when striking the Texas Governor it still hit bone in two places. It is not possible that this round would remain pristine without some visible deformation.
It is also important to consider why the Warren Commission came to this absurd conclusion. They found 3 shell casings and attempted to reconcile this finding with reality. The "miss" or the round that missed; hit a curb and shattered, with fragments strinking a bystander named James Tague. That left them with 2 rounds and 5 entry wounds, as well as 4 exit wounds. I could believe that there was a second shooter that got away, I cannot believe that Oswald fired any more than 3 rounds as the Zupruder film more or less establishes the time frame of 7 seconds or less. Plus as I mentioned, the feat of marksmanship seemed to be beyond him.
I don't make a habit of refuting experts, nor do I usually subscribe to conspiracy theories but in this case I have some knowledge of what I speak and the magic bullet contention is nearly impossible.
posted by
gomedome
on November 20, 2006 at 12:30 PM
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I have repeatedly said in these pages, Gome...
And elsewhere, that any intellectually honest person must incorporate new information into his perception matrix, and change the matrix, if necessary to accommodate that information. I have solid evidence that Jack Ruby was totally uninvolved in any kind of conspiracy – virtually first hand material, from his family attorney, who was involved with every aspect of Ruby's life. Your "new" information, however, forces me to reevaluate my original take on how Kennedy got shot. It is almost inevitable that if there were two shooters, then there HAD to be some kind of conspiracy. This forces me to open up a lot of "closed doors" in my matrix – something I must now do.
I am not going to follow any of the resulting paths for the time being, but the doors are now open. It appears that Oswald was not the only shooter, and may not even have been a shooter at all.
Thanks, buddy...
posted by
arGee
on November 20, 2006 at 11:26 AM
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arGee - but be certain what my position is first
I refer to it as a conspiracy only in a technical sense. The marksmanship of Oswald and the magic bullet that passed through JFK and then decimated the Texas Governor to exit his body after smashing human bone to remain pristine are both hogwash. That is the extent of my position, its foundation and almost its entirety.
At one time in my life I was proficient with a similar high powered weapon of nearly the same calibre. Unlike Oswald, I more than barely qualified on it. In my case a 7.62mm, in Oswalds case, a 6.5mm calibre. Dependent on the shell casing length, both had trajectories of 7-9 miles (if memory serves) and both are lethal up to about 3 miles. Both weapons are also subject to dramatic slug "yaw" . . which I am sure you know is the deformation of the bullet itself as it reaches maximum velocity. If one of these high powered rounds encounters something as flimsy as a napkin or even a tender leaf at this velocity, it deforms noticeably. It could not possibly be pristine after passing through JFK alone. Then we are asked to believe that the bullet travelled on a zig zag pattern through the flesh and bone of the governor to remain pristine as it exited. In my experience this is not possible. I add this to the marksmanship and I come up with 2 elements that are at the very least highly improbable.
Anyone doubting this should attempt to fire a bolt action, high powered rifle, at a moving target, that is 140 feet away, on a downward trajectory, while hiding amongst some boxes, all the while containing nerves and their emotions as they verge on infamy. (...and all of this in less than 7 seconds) That is the basis of my contention. I believe that the best explanation of why we are asked to believe this is; because it had to be put to bed quickly to placate the enormous national tensions that were fermenting in a super power entrenched in a cold war.
I have no other proof.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 6:54 PM
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That's a convincing article, Gome...
Now you force me to reevaluate my position. Did you have to do that?
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 4:43 PM
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arGee - Marine medals? - - - the man barely qualified
A good article on his acumen with a high powered rifle while a marine can be found:
HERE . . . but I don't base my opinion on this type of article entirely. I base it on experience in firing a high powered rifle myself and a full comprehension of what the man had to do to squeeze off 3 rounds from his location at a moving target in less than a 7 second time frame. I have stated that it was not impossible but highly improbable, especially for someone who was an average shooter at best. It is the ballistic report that raises an eyebrow. It leaves us with an improbable marksman firing magic bullets, with no time to aim, at a moving target, hitting 2 of 3. . . .
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 11:31 AM
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Oswald WAS a marksman, Gome...
With the Marine Corps medals to prove it. In order for the remainder of ANY conspiracy concept to have validity, Oswald would have had to be part of the conspiracy, either as an active member, or an unwitting pawn. On the available evidence – a great deal of it – there is a totality of zero such corroborating evidence. Ditto for any supporting role for Ruby – zero.
I would love to discuss this with you at greater length.
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 10:37 AM
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thank you gome on your explanation of tongue speaking
that one always puzzled me - and i think it is gibberish too
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 19, 2006 at 10:23 AM
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arGee - I think I may have read that book or one of a very similar theme
I can agree with most of what was concluded by the Warren Commission. Points of reference, time frames, associations etc. etc. I just cannot buy anything associated with the ballistic reports and supposed marksmanship. Oswald would have had to have been an incredibly good shot, an elite marksman but even this improbability is admittedly not enough on its own. The entire ballistic report is suspect and when viewed with the improbability of this man being an elite marksman, it makes the entire report incredibly fishy.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 10:12 AM
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Strange that you should mention it, Gome...
I published a book on that subject in 1988 under my imprint ROMAR BOOKS (I had a publishing company at that time), The Ruby – Oswald Affair, by Alan Adelson (the Jack Ruby family attorney). For reasons that probably don't matter anymore, including that the author passed away two weeks before the release of the book, the book didn't do very well.
The theme of the book is that the Warren Commission was essentially correct in all important aspects. Adelson did a very credible job of analyzing the telecommunication time-line from the official record, and put together a very convincing case for the single shooter scenario. He convincingly disproves any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and makes a convincing case for why Ruby did the dead. The book is well worth reading, and I believe you can find copies on Amazon at the above link.
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 9:51 AM
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arGee = speaking of conspiracy theories the only one I buy into is the
one about the Warren Commission.
We have been told that their conclusions were hastily arrived at to placate a distraught populace who had just lost their president and I can believe that to a certain extent. What I cannot believe is that one person accomplished that feat of marksmanship (from that distance and trajectory at a moving target), with the pristine bullet lending credence to the suggestion that someone was playing fast and loose with the truth. Once the entire report is looked at, it becomes obvious that a few men sat in a room somewhere and dreamt up a story, as if they were on a deadline.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 9:37 AM
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Not to mention, Gome...
The "depth" of verification research the
New York Times typically undertakes anymore.
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 9:22 AM
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arGee - there were a surprising number who wanted to believe that the 911
attacks were perpetrated by President Bush himself.
He apparently planned this attack on his own people as an excuse to start a war over oil. Really no kidding and if you go online for proof one can find all of the doctored photos one could ask for. Something such as this demonstrates the failing points of the internet as a means of research. Without the scrutiny, or the checks and balances that a news organization would subject themselves to, any putz with an agenda can write any so called "news" story and post it online. It also demonstrates the complete and utter gullibility of some people. I still laugh at some of the things these people said in attempts to convince me that their government had attacked itself.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 9:09 AM
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To "live forever," Parnell...
Is what I discussed in my article,
TO LIVE FOREVER – OR AT LEAST AS LONG AS POSSIBLE: AN UPDATE, where I look at the progress being made in extending human life. "Forever" appears elusive, but a "very long time" may be achievable.
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 8:57 AM
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SoloWriter - I think that speaks more to human nature than anything else
In all of the religious messages that exists on this planet there is one constant in that they all attempt to modify human behaviour. We are slowly improving our behaviour as a species but so very slowly.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 8:55 AM
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But they didn't, Gome, they didn't...
That's why we're talking about it now!
(BTW – a SF short story from several decades ago was about astronaut training before the moon shot. The author set up the story so that the astronauts thought they were actually making a solo trip around the moon, when – in fact – they really were just doing the final simulation run before the actual trip. It seems that all the trainees "lost their minds" during the backside-of-the-moon transit part of the training. The gist of the story was NASA trying to figure out what the problem was. After repeated failures, they finally sent a test subject through the simulation so that he was fully aware that he was going through a simulation.
I don't quite remember how the story was set up, but the moon simulation consisted of two canvas and wood hemispheres, the front and the back of the moon, and the astronauts were kept occupied during the transit from front to back. When the conscious guy undertook the simulation, he discovered that the system had broken down, and when the transition happened, he could clearly see that the entire moon structure was a simulation, with the physical support structure of wood and canvas clearly visible through the capsule port. NASA determined that the astronauts were driven crazy by the "realization" that the moon was not real, but some kind of cosmic simulation designed to fool earthlings.
The story was simple-minded, and no real astronaut would be fooled for a second by such a situation, nor would NASA do this in the first place, but the story stuck in my mind, and your commend raised it again.)
posted by
arGee
on November 19, 2006 at 8:52 AM
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Parnell - and it is the greatest marketing campaign of all time
Viral marketing at its absolute best, not to mention that the product itself has no inherent costs other than its delivery.
posted by
gomedome
on November 19, 2006 at 8:52 AM
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The old switch-a-ma-Roo: Jacob tricked his old dad into giving him the inheritance instead of his brother, whom everyone knew was supposed to receive the blessing. The beginnings of Jesus' lineage are a trick played on a family member. A bad trick.
It's really no wonder the Jews and Christians keep getting persecuted and killed throughout history.
posted by
Jenasis
on November 19, 2006 at 7:37 AM
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Gome
You're forgetting about the number one con: 'You're gonna live forever!' My old history professor taught this as the greatest marketing campaign of all time. And as with all the other examples there's no proof...
posted by
Antipodean
on November 18, 2006 at 11:41 PM
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arGee - I always get a kick out of the conspiracy theory people
They never seem to ask themselves the obvious questions. When Elvis faked his death for example, dontcha think he might have chosen something a little less ignominious than being found beside the toilet with his pants around his ankles? .... as for the moon landing: was it really possible for the thousands of support cast needed to build the set, film, direct, act in, process the footage and then distribute the fake moon landing to all have kept their mouths shut for 37 years?
posted by
gomedome
on November 18, 2006 at 8:52 PM
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OFFBEATS - desperately searching for something is the key
When the 913 people that died in the Jonestown massacre are looked at, the vast majority were disenfranchised, destitute, or social outcasts attempting to fit in somewhere prior to Jonestown. There were many more aspects involved than just the underlying religious message. Jimmy Jones was an enigmatic speaker that mesmerized his audiences with promises of a utopia for them alone. His was a dominant will overpowering a large group of weak willed people.
posted by
gomedome
on November 18, 2006 at 8:42 PM
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The 72 virgins are what is supposedly awaiting Muslim martyrs as a reward
from Allah when they die.
You can tell that the guys that dreamt up this stuff came from a bartering society. Like where did the number 72 come from? Allah was probably offering 50, the martyrs started at 100 . . .
posted by
gomedome
on November 18, 2006 at 8:31 PM
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SuccessWarrior - I don't know if exorcism would fall into the category of a
true con game.
With the exorcism sacrament being so obscure these days ....but the act of providing protection from the possessing demons could certainly be considered a con.
posted by
gomedome
on November 18, 2006 at 8:26 PM
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ladychardonnay - speaking in tongues is an ancient con game that works on
a very simple principle.
The principle is based on making people believe that it is desirable to speak in tongues but suggesting that it is caused by a visit to the individual from the holy spirit. When this con is perpetrated on a crowd of gullible people there are two things that are part of human nature that almost insure it will work every time. Everyone wants to be the first in the room to speak in tongues, no one wants to be the last and certainly no one wants to be the only one not speaking in tongues. Therefore once it starts in a room, it is almost guaranteed that all but the extremely self confident will feign speaking in tongues thereby convincing all participants that something is really happening. Even if they themselves are faking it. There is no language spoken, recordings of such events have produced nothing but phonetically arranged gibberish. Arranged by the tongue speaker because they want it to sound as if it is a language being spoken as based on their expectations.
The main reason this con is perpetrated is to allow the leader of the group to offer an interpretation of what the gibberish being spoken means. This gives this leader(s) unchecked leeway in manufacturing the interpretations which invariably always say exactly the same thing . . ."give me your money, you fools"
posted by
gomedome
on November 18, 2006 at 8:21 PM
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i don't know - back in the "olden days"
we watched it on an old black and white TV in school.
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 5:11 PM
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Don't forget the Scientologists...
And their various and sundry pseudo-science scams...forty years after Neil Armstrong first stepped on the Moon (or was that a scam, too!)...
posted by
arGee
on November 18, 2006 at 5:09 PM
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lady
I think some people are starved for something to believe in..Unfortunately those poor souls end up finding creeps that feed that hunger..Plus their stupid..
posted by
Offy
on November 18, 2006 at 4:50 PM
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who were the 72 virgins cantey?
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 4:49 PM
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hitching a ride on the comet - with your new shoes!!!
i have fallen for some con games over the years for a $5 or $20 - but never something involving my life - how can someone be brainwashed like that????
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 4:48 PM
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lady
Yeah Jimmy Jones that was his name..and those people your talkin about were hitching a ride on the comet...God what were they thinkin?
posted by
Offy
on November 18, 2006 at 4:45 PM
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72 virgins
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 18, 2006 at 4:44 PM
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Jim Jones I think - that was so sad
The Jonestown thing - how could anyone fall for such stupidity. what about the people with the new tennis shoes in bunk beds that drank something that thought they were going to a different planet.
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 4:43 PM
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How about you have to kill to go to heaven? I'll never get that one!
Oh and what was the guys name that took the people to South America and made them drink cool aid? Anyway he preached fear and the Russians were coming..
posted by
Offy
on November 18, 2006 at 4:41 PM
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and the healings on the tv shows!!!!! don't get me started
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 4:37 PM
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How about exorcism? You covered it before.
Someone pretends to be possessed and then a priest saves the day.
Or they are mentally ill and the priests prayers aren't powerful enough to release the demon.
posted by
SuccessWarrior
on November 18, 2006 at 4:33 PM
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the speaking in tongues one really confuses me
what language are they speaking? who made up the tongue talk anyway. i don't buy it for one minute.
posted by
ladychardonnay
on November 18, 2006 at 2:58 PM
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