Go to Earth Magic
- Add a comment
- Go to Is War Inevitable?
Ciel
I, too, think that we could be doing a lot better in many areas here.
Hopefully, things will begin to take a turn for the better now that there are new faces popping up in the government.
I had read some of Sylvia Browne's predictions for the next few years. She said that some home-grown terrorists are going to be arrested for plotting to overthrow the govt. They will be in our own back yard.
posted by
avant-garde
on January 17, 2007 at 2:19 AM
| link to this | reply
I just had a very long chat with a stranger from Pakistan.
I suppose the eagle-eyes at the security of homeland will have me on their radar now... If somehow they had missed my stance on Bush and on global warming and a number of other topics...
This Pakistani did a search of 'phool' and came up with, among other things, my phoolsparadise IM address. I now know that 'phool' is not just an alternative way to spell 'fool,' it also means 'flower' in Urdu.
We chatted about religion and religions-- he is 23 and Muslim, and I am 54 and not religious, but a spiritually-aware woman raised in a mainly Judeo/Christian society. Eventually we got past that and chatted about travel, politics and language. We found that we agree about a lot of things, though we are from quite different worlds and generations. We talked about ebay and cafepress and photography, and the time difference which is 11 hours, of which we had just shared around 4.
Finally, we added each other to our IM lists, and there is a good chance we will chat again. He said, Inshallah, which, I know, means: If God wills...
posted by
Ciel
on January 16, 2007 at 5:15 PM
| link to this | reply
faholo
It will happen. I think war becoming evolved beyond is inevitable. But, can Mother Earth hold out that long? I think that is the question.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 8, 2006 at 12:55 PM
| link to this | reply
Avant, Blanch and all those who commented here today!
What an interesting learning experience I have just undergone! It is exciting for me to read so many entries of agreement and disagreement with the mature attitudes shown here. The intelligent responses, the great defenses of one's position, the mutual respect of one another's ability to defend your beliefs. You folks have all just proven that mature adults regardless of backgorunds and religious belief systems can come to a respectful conclusion; agree to disagree in the spirit of brotherly and sisterly love!
Blanche said,"Every oppressor percieves himself to be oppressed. That (in his mind/my words) justifies his oppression. In this sense he becomes what he loathes. When we feel defensive and rise to attack...we are victimizing another the way we have felt victimized." This is very important to remember in dealing with the concept of war and it's basic causes. When we choose to remain a victim to abuse and violence, in our heart and mind; we will seek ways to project that pain into the lives of others. Thus bitterness, revenge and the need to pass on our pain to others will continue to create abuse, violence and war. Only personal peace of heart and mind of men and women everywhere will stop this cycle! I do not see this happening in my lifetime, however, I pray it will happen in yours and your childrrens' lifetimes. Blessings! 
faholo
posted by
faholo
on December 8, 2006 at 8:45 AM
| link to this | reply
Mrs T
Thanks.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 8, 2006 at 2:05 AM
| link to this | reply
Whacky
You're absolutely right.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 8, 2006 at 2:05 AM
| link to this | reply
Ciel
Wow. Thanks.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 8, 2006 at 2:04 AM
| link to this | reply
Blanche
Fair enough. How's the weather there? It's very cold and windy here.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 8, 2006 at 2:04 AM
| link to this | reply
Wow, you've all said it.
Mrs T
posted by
Tanga
on December 8, 2006 at 12:32 AM
| link to this | reply
Inevitable...it shouldn't be.
posted by
Whacky
on December 7, 2006 at 10:53 PM
| link to this | reply
I didn't say war is never necessary.
I do believe in the distinction between justified and unjustified war. I would not have supported the idea of choosing not to fight against the likes of Hitler, for instance, for the sake of being war-free.
However, the choice changes when our warring has the capacity to destroy our ability to live on this planet.
Atomics changed the set-point for justification: Would I choose, if it were in my hands, to lose America to a pathological dictatorship rather than take steps to prevent it that would, instead, sterilize the planet?
To what extent does any society have the right to defend its own existence?
I believe it would be better to lose our freedoms, which can be asserted again someday, and reclaimed, than to push the button that brings down the dictator, and everyone else as well.
posted by
Ciel
on December 7, 2006 at 5:33 PM
| link to this | reply
Avant, I guess I should just shut up and get on with my work and let you
get on with yours. Pax, Ecce Ad Summus Auxilio Vobis
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 4:26 PM
| link to this | reply
I am far from innocent, there is metaphorical blood on my hands, very
nearly literal. I am as they say a sinner redeemed and saved by Grace. I believe in it, not by my own efforts, which were exhausted, and when I was at my wits' ends and no longer could carry on or function, the Holy Spirit saved me, believe it or don't, that's true..
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 4:25 PM
| link to this | reply
Blanche
Therein lies the issue. Every person who attacks another believes himself to be innocent. But, where is the root cause? It is merely a series of reactions, or is it a psychological problem that no one is willing to address?
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:17 PM
| link to this | reply
apple
Oh, just a little dip, eh?
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:16 PM
| link to this | reply
Ciel
It would be interesting to read a post by you on such a thing as this. We are on common ground much of the time, but from very different views.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:16 PM
| link to this | reply
bel
Thanks. Sometimes, nothing said is very powerful indeed.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:15 PM
| link to this | reply
sannhet
You have summed it up succintly. It is hard for ego to see that it is nothing more than a thought, when it is so puffed up and believing in its reality. After all, there is much to lose and nothing to gain by looking.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:14 PM
| link to this | reply
Bhaskar
I am enjoying this debate, as it has stirred the thinking faculties of you, Blanche, sannhet, and ciel. I appreciate all of your contributions.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:13 PM
| link to this | reply
Blanche
There is more I would like to say, but I realize that it serves no purpose other than to foment more argument.
It is hard to take another to a place where the journey is unwanted. War does serve a short-term purpose, as Ciel has said, in that it quells a perceived wrong and establishes a period of seeming peace. But, in reality, war begets war, as peace begets peace.
Every oppressor perceives himself to be oppressed. That justifies his oppression. In this sense, he becomes what he loathes. When we feel defensive and rise to attack, we are victimizing another, the way we have felt victimized.
There is no solution to such a self-sustained cycle. It is its own cause, albeit an illusion.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 1:11 PM
| link to this | reply
Sannhet, Ciel, Avant, et al, while I agree philosophically that anger is a
psychological problem rooted in everythng right back to faulty toilet training and Freudian sex drives, how does that solve the Mid East crisis or territorial aggression, sometimes force must be met with force. Period. It's all some understand and respect, and even if it's done in an enlightened state of mind, without rancor or hatred, it must be stopped.
Sometimes force is justified.
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 12:42 PM
| link to this | reply
And it wwhat sense does "war work"? Ciel, Work for whom for what purpose?
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 12:37 PM
| link to this | reply
Ciel, Avant, et al, that's a nice theory. In the most perfect of all
worlds, were everyone equally involved, enlightened and self-controlled, war would be a dim and bitter memory. But when life, limb and liberty are on the line, it is soometimes necessary to defend oneself. Ask the Founding Fathers, or we would not have the great country we have. It's not something to be taken for granted, and Thomas Paine and Thomas Jefferson knew that.
It is necessary to defend one's own convictions and at times one's own life, and I believe that Avant and I have agreed on that it is necessary to defend one's home and family, but where we may have a difference of opinion (note that concept as well ,it seems to be a novel one here on the blog, that two can disagree and still be friends or friendly, even still respect each other's diversity of thought), is that it is necessary to defend IDEAS and convictions, which I will continue to do unapologetically as long the current Administration and it's supporters tries to suppress freedom of speech on this blog as well as in the US in general.
I will not submit to tyranny anymore than Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Abigail and John Adams, or the people who made the ultimate sacrifice to lay down their lives for our liberties and lives, in order to acquiesce or appease tyrants.
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 12:36 PM
| link to this | reply
what?
far to cold for swimming in this season.
posted by
appleworks7
on December 7, 2006 at 10:28 AM
| link to this | reply
The problem is, war works.
It works in the short term only, perhaps, but that's enough for most people. The short term can be a long time, long enough for people who only think of their own immediate relief from pain, anxiety, discomfort, sense of imbalance...
I feel a blog coming on...
posted by
Ciel
on December 7, 2006 at 10:21 AM
| link to this | reply
posted by
bel_1965
on December 7, 2006 at 9:33 AM
| link to this | reply
Avant -
Oops. Sorry about that. I don't know what happened. Any way, here is my two cents worth. And, like Blanche, I mean no disrespect to anyone. This is just how I see this reality working:
Any external conflict is an internal conflict projected outward. Any internal conflict arises ultimately from a realization (sometimes consciously, sometimes not) that one lacks love of the self. Since nature abhors a vacuum, and since there are only two emotions (fear and love), if one lacks love, fear replaces it. And for many, the emotion of fear (and its many manifestations - anger, jeaoulsy, hate, contempt, etc) is almost like an addiction for their ego. If one becomes angry at another, that action creates a sense of false power for the ego. And once one's ego has a taste of power (real or not), it does whatever it can to feed that need - including creating situations based in fear.
Until humanity has evolved spiritually (something that I believe has always been happening and will always continue to happen), there will always be war, because there will always be the internal struggle to fill the vacuum with love or fear.
posted by
sannhet
on December 7, 2006 at 7:38 AM
| link to this | reply
Avant -
I'll throw my two cents in. As
posted by
sannhet
on December 7, 2006 at 7:16 AM
| link to this | reply
Hi Avant and Blanche
See quite some stimulating and animated discussions going on. Anger or the desire to win and give our petty ego the satisfaction of winning an argument seems to be the root cause, and the topic for discussion today.
Anger is usually magnified and extended in time when a cognitive decision is made about the intent of the individual (or organization or object) attributed to causing the pain. In other words, if we decide the pain/deprivation was intentional, "deliberate," the emotion is usually more intense.
When anger is used to "suppress opposition" though emotional bullying or violence, the "bullier" and "bullied" often fail to realize that the root of anger is fear. The "angrier" and more "enraged" an individual appears, the more is it likely that the individual is experiencing greater fear. And, to my mind the only thing to be feared is fear itself.
posted by
Bhaskar.ing
on December 7, 2006 at 6:26 AM
| link to this | reply
In what way do any of us help each other? To heal, to hear, to speak
our own truths, and it is in creating a safe space for everyone to speak their truth without being attacked that I am most vehement in my defense of the fragile, the voiceless, the crazy, the wounded. I will defend what I consider my own people, the freaks and outcasts, most vigorously.
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 4:45 AM
| link to this | reply
I totally respect your path, Avant, but I don't think that it entirely
coincides with mine. You're coming from somewhere else, a place of strife, activity, wanting to help and becoming jaded by the people whom you've attempted to help and by the system itself.
So, your finding yourself by looking within and discovering the truths you have there about projecting your own anger, anxiety and demons onto others I completely understand. Everyone projects fears, animosity onto others. Just today I told TAPS that I project animosity onto her because she resembles nurses I have encountered in the past, I feel controlled and angry. I recognize it, I know it, and I know that TAPS are not those people, but those ideas, in the medical professioon that render the patient voiceless, the crazy ones, like me who are dismissed for being crazy, a mere list of sx in the DSM-IV: eg, "rapid, pressured speech", etc. they don't look for the cause, the need for speech is the need to feel heard and validated.
You are coming at the problems of life from your perspective and experience and I from mine. I respect yours, I think that you are a very good person, struggling within yourself as I do myself, which is why I'm here, to work out my own salvation figuratively or literally, but not always meekly.
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 4:43 AM
| link to this | reply
Blanche
I, too, have had hopes of this nature when coming here almost two years ago. I thought that if I could help someone, then I might feel helped. It is merely another trick of the mind, as I have come to see.
I do not feel as though I cause any momentous change in anyone but myself. Yet, by doing that, I have literally changed the world. This validates in me that I am the world, and all that is contained within it.
This is both the beauty and the madness. I will see what I expect to see, and my expecting it has created it.
I need to convince no one of this. It brings me to peace with everyone, which is proof of its existence in reality.
Let us trod our paths and seek to harm no one. In that moment of taking responsibility, we have accepted ourselves by accepting others.
posted by
avant-garde
on December 7, 2006 at 4:37 AM
| link to this | reply
Avant, at last we peel the layers of the cosmic onion and arrive at the
core of our philosophical disagreement, yours and mine. Most respectfully and without rancoror I submit the following argument in response to yours. I mean you no disrespect, and in fact, I hold you in the highest regard.
Here is your final paragraph:
Yea, a war is merely an inward struggle to feel secure. I must freely admit that it creates my insecurity, in order for me to turn inward to its very source. This takes courage: for then you face death head on. And, death lies only in the mind.
Most of your writings, since the beginning of your blogs, have been of a highly spiritual and psychological nature, focusing on your inward evolution, and struggles to understand not only your own character but human nature as well, and you've gained a wide readership and respect for your writings.
My core philosophical disagreement rests in your final statement. I think that conflict is not only internal, not a mere chimera or projection of ourselves thrust onto a shadowy stage, as in Jung's Shadow, the dark side disowned and repressed only to be projected onto another to become The Enemy, that which we cannot face in ourselves, becomes the hated other, without substance.
There is that, but if one becomes aware of The Shadow and the concept of projection, then it takes our personal awareness and interaction to the next level, a level of conscious decision-making.
I freely choose, not always, sometimes reactively, but I have thought out the morals, values, beliefs and creeds, which I do find worthy of defending and arguing and debating according to the standards of acceptable debate, I do not initiate personal attacks.
Only ideas are harmful, not people,but ideas themselves create consequences which need to be corrected, as you correct and teach your sons, which is your job as a father, to patiently correct Luke, Sam and Noah, and instill values you have forged for yourself.
Ideas are wrong, at times, such as this war, and I will continue to insist on that, sometimes with rancor and sometimes without, but as I said elsewhere with the idea of speaking for justice, for speaking out for the voiceless, of whom I have been one, but this blog has become my voice, and it is not for my own petty ego, or wish to be vengeful or tyrannical I am speaking, but in hopes of fostering discussion which will take us all to the next level of conscious awareness.
Sorry to write a post on your blog,but I feel passionately on this subject and I want you to understand where I am coming from and what I believe and why.
posted by
Blanche.
on December 7, 2006 at 4:19 AM
| link to this | reply