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Naut On Religion...XIX
Naut: Very interesting, informative and enlightening.
posted by
WavyDavy
on December 8, 2007 at 10:38 AM
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Very Interesting!
People do flock together....So it is the Europeans who are more individualistic in their Christianity, more than the Americans, thinking on it I do beleive I see that, at least the American side....very interesting!
posted by
KaBooM62
on December 7, 2007 at 8:54 PM
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You might consider doing that.........
I think you would probably write a very good one.....lots of folks are still in the "putting things together" mindset.....or entering another one.....and having a distillation of ideas put at our fingertips, in language we can understand (well, most of the time...... :)...) would be a book I would buy.....
posted by
Krisles
on December 7, 2007 at 5:22 PM
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Krisles
Of course, all this gets very complicated - if I want to cover everything, this is gonna turn into a damn
book...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 7, 2007 at 2:07 PM
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TAPS
I understand completely! That's my point: a believer wouldn't (or couldn't) do this! And, since the body isn't actually dead yet, I hope no one will accuse me of
vivisection here...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 6, 2007 at 2:27 PM
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Nautikos
See....like I said, I just know enough to be ignorant on things.....when I think of Christianity in Europe, I mainly think of Catholicism....and I rarely think of that as a religion for everyone, in the way I think Christianity is, through my eyes as a Protestant....and I know that is in no way an objective, or even in any way, educated, look...it's just an honest statement. But, I also in no way relate to "holy rollers" or snake handlers or any extreme fundamentalist Protestant. To me, Catholics somehow seem as much linked to the Pope as to God, and fundamentalists somehow seem at least as interested in judging others as living "right" themselves,
So much to consider in your comments....I agree there is a class consciousness here but that's such a deep subject I won't say much because it's a long discussion...I do think it's only the very old money families who really have the class consciouness most often meant by that expression....more common here is "success" consciousness....whether measured in looks, thinness, money, house, etc....and that makes for a very fluid movement of the classes... Did I forget to say, as always, excellent post?!
posted by
Krisles
on December 5, 2007 at 6:37 PM
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Nautikos
I only use that term because you spoke of me as being on the inside. But, I agree. I have no desire to disect my religion just as I would have no interest in disecting a fetal pig if I was one. LOL
posted by
TAPS.
on December 5, 2007 at 11:40 AM
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Re: You have a very objective point of view...I like that!
Ariala, objectivity is my middle name...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 5, 2007 at 11:37 AM
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TAPS
I am really thrilled by your comment! It tells me that certainly one person, namely
you, understand what I am trying to do here, and that possibly others will understand it as well! One small point: you say that I am doing that 'even from the outside'; I would argue that it is only
possible from the outside...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 5, 2007 at 11:30 AM
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lindo
Thanks for your comment! It is the crux of my argument that in all cases religion is
grounded in and
emerges from a specific cultural context. And my next stop will be Islam, which may well lead to a lively debate...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 5, 2007 at 11:22 AM
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Krisles
In Europe too Christianity was everyone’s religion.The class ‘structure’ in Europe existed outside of the Church, although the church made it possible for individuals to ‘move up’! The way Christianity manifests itself in America is not due to Christianity itself, but the result of the relative absence of class consciousness, and other factors. (I say ‘relative’, because Americans are in fact quite class conscious, although that shows itself in much more subtle ways than it does in Europe, and movement ‘up’ or ‘down’ is far easier.)
On the other hand, the Catholic Church is still more hierarchical, and holds fast to certain coctrinal positions. But so do American Protestants, particularly when it comes to a literal reading of scripture.
On the whole, Europeans, whether Catholic or Protestant, tend to wear their religion more lightly than Americans. You don’t find much fundamentalism in Europe, as you do in the States. Catholics and Protestants have long ago made their peace with science. For example, I don’t think you would find anyone there demanding that ‘Creation Science’ be taught in schools, as is the case in America, since they accept that ‘Creation Science’ ain’t science but a crock...
I see one of the main differences in the way in which in many forms of American Protestantism members of the congregation are encouraged to participate actively in the service, the most striking example of which is the whole 'holy roller' phenomenon...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 5, 2007 at 11:14 AM
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You have a very objective point of view...I like that!
posted by
Ariala
on December 5, 2007 at 4:58 AM
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Nautikos
You disect religion much in the same way that I disected the fetal pig in my high school science class. You somehow (even from the outside) cover all the basics and principles to make your post both dramatic and synoptic while cropping incidentals and framing valued material. I continue to find your posts on this subject fascinating.
posted by
TAPS.
on December 5, 2007 at 4:57 AM
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Naut
A very good post. Somehow religion ends up reflecting not just our spiritual character but also the temprament and social makeup of the society/ethnicity/country/continnent/ that embraces it. Looking forward to your next stop on the faith trail.
posted by
lindo
on December 5, 2007 at 1:57 AM
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Nautikos
And, it's seen as obnoxious in many cultures.....and, I have this theory that Texas is yet a mini-reflection
in America, of many features America has
in the world....may sound crazy, but this need to connect and form associations is a perfect example....Texans are the most "obnoxious" of all Americans....we're the most independent, most prone to be seen as bullies/reckless/wild/uncouth and often the ones most depended on for assistance of all kinds, and frequently put down as ignorant and redneck, the jokes about spending money, garish tastes, etc., etc..... And so I'll meander back to topic (!) The main reason I believe America has always been more accepting of Christianity....it is the religion of all, not of class and I just wonder if the European culture has the historical "legs" to support Christianity long-term, and ....second point, Christianity is a religion which I think will only really long-term survive in a more Protestant form because it is less class oriented.....predicated on love and equality between humans. The changes in the Catholic religion happened because they did not work for the majority, they tried to force believers into a mold and that model no longer fit for Christians....it just took some generations of brain washing to break through the obstacle. Like a river washing through the earth to force its course and alter the geography, it is the free will of man in Christianity that is a mesh with the American spirit and why it will always thrive here. (Cue music and shut the woman up!) Just felt talky tonigh.....I'm not on the phones at work lately.....reviewing files while plugged into my iPod all day....guess I need to "talk"......
posted by
Krisles
on December 4, 2007 at 7:10 PM
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Krisles
Thanks, I know what you mean; it's one of the things that really distinguishes Americans from Europeans, and even Canadians...
posted by
Nautikos
on December 4, 2007 at 5:07 PM
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Thanks, Sam!
posted by
Nautikos
on December 4, 2007 at 5:04 PM
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Nautikos
Well, I hadn't read this post before I put my comment up on the one before this.....but, I wouldn't really change my comment....I had started to get into the whole Catholic/Protestant thing....but didn't, it's kind of hard to put into words, but it's almost strange to see them both come under a common heading, "Christian"...they seem that far apart on the spectrum....... That said....the whole comment you make on how Americans seem to form associations, the thought that immeidately flew into my mind was, "only as Americans"....by that I mean, that is our common demoninator....and it is enough to be an association....the next level on the organizational chart would be, from what state are you, and we would sort ourselves out that way....and then, from what city/town (or an area around)....and so on....we will find commonality...and then, of course, I realized that is the point....we will always seek to find a common denominator...we had to, forming this country...that is what is in our blood, finding the common denominator. Give me a minute with any human and I will find a way to connect and communicate....I want to do that.
posted by
Krisles
on December 3, 2007 at 8:28 PM
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WELL THOUGHT OUT>>>>I'LL BE READING>>>>SAM
posted by
sam444
on December 3, 2007 at 12:23 PM
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