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Here's the thing:
Republicans controlled Congress for most of Clinton's Administration, effectively hamstringing any actions he could have taken, then totally froze government with the fake impeachment.
Republicans passed the bills deregulating the Banking Industry (remember Savings & Loans? I mean it -- they are just a memory now after deregulation). I have seen the timeline and the bills (all Republican sponsored and passed - just have to give a link to it.
The main problem has been the fake economy. Because of easy credit cards and home loans, retail sales and housing starts were quite positive -- but the real money wasn't there -- this made the economy look good and no president or congressman wanted to fool with it and make the economy look bad.
Now, we're maxed out with credit of all sorts. Now we are faced with the reality of public figures' actions.
posted by
Xeno-x
on November 19, 2008 at 11:22 AM
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Re: mordent, that has always been the case w/ Kooka ~
Yup exactly. Give him some inspiration to put a net on Barney Frank. Not a chance.
posted by
mordent
on November 19, 2008 at 9:46 AM
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Janes
Don't try to pretend you do not give Bush credit for all that is good and then point the finger at the other party when all is not so good. You are saying that because Obama got elected the stock market is not doing well. While you claim otherwise , you are ignoring the other factors, most of which are related to lack of consumer confidence that started BEFORE Obama won the election.
Hell even Mordent there, who was criticizing us all for placing the blame on one person, places the blame on one person, but at least for once he credits something real outside of his own fantasy on the issue. Of course even then, I have heard many market annalists say that once Obama takes office we will see confidence return and the market will get better.
Basically you do just what you are trying to criticize me for doing.
Of course I do not believe it is all Bush's fault, he just did nothing to stop it. While a blind man who had been living in a box for the last eight years could have seen this coming a mile away, Bush pretended all was well and told people we need not worry about it and should instead focus on other things that helped his puppet masters make money and gain power. It is not all his fault, but as President he should have been a real leader and been working to help prevent it form happening, but he was either really as stupid as it gets if he actually believe what he was saying, or he just didn't care and way openly lying to the American people in order to get way with his BS. Bush has taken us a long way from the idea of 'The Buck stops here', which really is how each President should be viewed, and his backers are all for making sure that the buck never stops with him, since we can't blame him for anything as far as you are concerned.
While it is a world wide issue right now, it started here in the US and it spread. Of course you want to blame either Clinton or the Democratic Congress for it, which is what you have been trying to do all along. If anything you and the conservatives are much worse when it comes to playing the blame game.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 19, 2008 at 7:54 AM
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Yes, kooka, the dow was up 150 or so yesterday
but have you looked at all the other days it was down? The vast majority have been down since Obama elected. I'd be the first to say there's more to it than just an Obama election. That is, our soft economy is also doing a whack job on it. And I am 100% convinced that you will blame this fully on either Bush, conservatives or Republicans. Have at it man, and just keep showing the rest how narrow minded you are.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on November 19, 2008 at 4:32 AM
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mordent, that has always been the case w/ Kooka ~
It's always one person's or one party's fault -- either Bush's fault, or the fault of conservatives, or the fault of Republicans. It has become quite apparent that Demos need take no responsibility for their significant contributions to the economic downturn -- at least according to Kooka.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on November 19, 2008 at 4:28 AM
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The whole world suffered a stock-market crash. Who was responsible for that? Was Bush running every country?
The most valid point you have is that either party takes the credit when things are good and blames the other for the bad.
Everyone wants the stock-market to do better but it is no doubt that news about Obama being elected has deeply injured the market for now. My broker says so before and after. And so do his peers.
Truth is you put far too much emphasis on one human being (President) and so do many others be they from the left or right.
After a while it may be the right that relaxes and the hard left who is disappointed when they find he is more of a centrist than they wished.
Thanks for ignoring me by the way.
posted by
mordent
on November 18, 2008 at 8:39 PM
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RSM
The reason we just had such a stock market crash was because the market was so artificially inflated due to a lot of what Bush kept doing with his tax cuts. Since there was more profits being reported without there actually being more money being made, and there actually being less money in circulation (Mostly due to the company NOT giving anything from those tax cuts to their employees, but instead putting it all as part of their bottom line to help artificially inflate the market), many stocks prices were based on inaccurate information. Also, at that point the housing bubble had yet to burst and Bush was busy getting credit for how great it was that so many people were now owning houses. You were one on those using the book in house sells as a way to defend Bush at that point. Bush got credit from your side when it was all good and you guys jumped to point eh finger at Clinton when it all went bad. Funny thing is at that point Bush had much more influence on the market at that time than anything Clinton did while he was in office.
And yes, the market is always in fluctuation. But crashed like what we just saw are NOT normal and can be avoided if our leaders are ahead of the game and actually thinking about their actions. In Bush's case if he had given a damn about the real issues and needs of the people, then he might have been doing something real and been able to put various programs into action that could have either prevented the crash or at least made it not as bad. This crash was not a surprise and we had a lot of warning that it was coming, yet Bush kept going on about how all is well and did NOTHING to counter it.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 18, 2008 at 6:58 PM
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Janes
First off, you can't blame the present Congress for what is happening right now. They've not been running things long enough. And also, the Democrats have been trying to get stuff done, but they did not have enough of a majority and the Republicans have done all they could to keep anything from getting done to make the Democrats look bad
The housing bubble was created by Clinton, but Bush had more than enough time if he had the ability to think ahead, to start up something that would have picked up the slack when the housing bubble burst. If he actually had put effort towards dealing with the economy instead of his 'War on Terror' which he himself turned into a big joke when he pushed us into Iraq, he might have been able to keep ahead of the problems. But Bush basically did all he could to ignore the real needs of this country the whole time he was in office, allowing things to get worse. Four years ago I was predicting that we would see a stock market collapse if something wasn't done because of what I was seeing. I know next to nothing about economics, yet I saw this coming. Bush should know more than I do, yet he was oblivious(Or just didn't care), claiming that we were in great shape. He could have put something into action years ago that could have worked to help prevent this all, or at least have made is not as devastation as it has been.
I noticed the DOW as UP about 150 points today I think. And I believe that is what we will start seeing regularly. Obama's tax plans will end up being very beneficial for us all in the end as it stimulates the economy by helping to circulate the money and allow the working class to have more money for nonessentials. You and I won't really notice the new taxes directly. Indirectly we will find we have money and are feeling less stressed. Unless you are doing really well off and can afford to pay more taxes and will very much gain indirectly as the economy improves and people in general are spending more as more money is put back into circulation.
posted by
kooka_lives
on November 18, 2008 at 6:45 PM
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Re: Excuse me? Downtimes that Bush brought us into?
On October 13, 2006, the stock market closed at 11,960.51. On October 11, 2007 the market closed at 14,279.96. I do believe that President Bush was in office at this time don't you?
The most truthful statement about the stock market came from a man I once knew who is now deceased but lost a huge amount of money in the stock market crash of the 30's but ended up being worth millions. he told me once that when people would ask him what he thinks the stock market will do this year he would say just one word: fluctuate.
What goes up must come down. It is the stock market. It is a gamble! A gamble means risks. The market will continue to go up and down no matter who is in office! Bush experienced the highs and the lows. Why can't anyonme understand this? Oh, that's right bias!
posted by
RedStatesMan
on November 18, 2008 at 5:32 PM
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Excuse me? Downtimes that Bush brought us into?
You forget who's been in power in the Congress over the past two years and saw the downfall of the economy? You forget who started the whole real estate bubble? Clinton and cronies? Who received the most money from Fannie and Freddie but Obama and democrats? Good grief, Kooka, but you've got blinders on. You only see what you want to see.
I have been appalled with Bush's over expansion of gov, particularly w/ Med part D. Heck, that was the most "un-conservative" thing a Republican Pres could do.
Fact is, if the economy improves, I'll be thrilled. Me thinks, though, improvement will come in spite of Obama and not because of his presidency. The markets at least will bounce back because they've hit a natural bottom, and probably not from anything he's done. That said, I'm not convinced we'll see much improvement if he raises taxes on dividends and capital gains as he has promised. I mean, really, is there any wonder why the markets have collapsed further since he won? Last I heard it was by 14% or so. People are withdrawing money, in part, so they don't get slapped with higher taxes.
posted by
JanesOpinion
on November 18, 2008 at 4:40 PM
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It depends on what Rush says.
posted by
calmcantey75
on November 18, 2008 at 2:48 PM
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