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WhorledPeas
The Iraqis getting to have elections is great, I admit. But first off there is no benefit at all for the US in them having those. Second, it would have been something real if they had been the ones to organize and fight for their own freedom. We basically pushed our way in and told them that we wanted to do it. In the end there is a emptiness to it because of how it all went down. They are not going to appreciate it in the manner they should and if anything there is a resentment of their present government being to some degree forced on them by the US. I really don't think the new government is going to last long due to how it was birthed.
As for you other two points, those are real easy to counter.
1) Fighting the terrorists there has kept the fight off our soil
What logic are you using in that? In over two hundred years there have only been two successful terrorists attacks by foreign parties on US soil. Those attacks were eight years apart. By your logic Clinton was able to keep attacks from happening after the first attacking the twin towers, and so Bush screwed things up when he let 9/11 happen. The only part to your logic that works is that by sending American solider over there for the terrorists to kill, we give them their fill. If we let them kill our solider then they might not need to come after our civilians. Outside of that it really is twisting things to claim we are safer now from terrorists attacks. We are not an easy target for them. Right now the best way to keep us all safe is to give Obama our support and help do all we can to make sure there is a minimum of confusion in this transitional year, since those two attacks have both been during transitional years when we are the most venerable.
2) Freedom and economic stability for that region is the only way to "cure" terrorism.
There is no 'cure' for terrorism. You could get the whole of the Middle East settled down and there would still be terrorists. Of course what we have done in Iraq has not caused any form of stability what-so-ever. if we wanted stability we should have stayed the course in Afghanistan and taken out those who were directly behind the attack of 9/11 then used that to show how effective we can be in dealing with terrorists. While even that would not put an end to terrorism, it would have given us a better stance worldwide in everyone coming together to help deal with the real problems.
If I have to worry about the mothers in Iraq, I have to worry about every mother every where and what you are defending says we somehow need to stretch out influence and tell the whole rest of the world how it should be run. That is just justification after the point. And there is no military stability there and Iraq is far from 'healing'. Right now the consensus in Iraq is that they want us out of there so they can feel as if they are in control of their country. And there was no real reason to go into Iraq. Bush would have found a justification to go into whatever country he wanted to go into. He had his heart set on Iraq and was able to push for it. Then after he got us there he had to invent reason after reason to justify it, because the freedom excuse you are preaching here is NOT the reason we were told we were going there for.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 25, 2009 at 9:24 AM
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Elections
For perhaps the first time ever, Iraq has held free elections. (Saddam did hold elections, and managed to get over 99% of the vote) There was instability after the overthrow of Saddam because he kept things under control with an iron fist - no dissent allowed. Some people complain about the number of Iraqi civilians who have died (most killed by other Iraqis, not U.S. soldiers). But many people died under Saddam's reign.
I think what has happened in Iraq directly benefits the U.S. in two ways. 1) Fighting the terrorists there has kept the fight off our soil 2) Freedom and economic stability for that region is the only way to "cure" terrorism.
Do you ever worry about the mothers in Iraq? Can you imagine the life they have? If you were in their shoes, would you want a superpower like the U.S. to overthrow the dictator and provide military stability until your own country could heal enough to stand on its own? I would. Luckily for them we had reason to go into Iraq, because we're not going to do that everywhere in the world where that needs to happen. In thinking of Germany and Japan, it ends up being a pretty good thing for a country to be defeated by the U.S. My $.02
posted by
WhorledPeas
on January 24, 2009 at 8:44 PM
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WhorledPeas
That is your opinion. Now tell me why you think that. I've yet to see anything come out of our war in Iraq that is beneficial for this country. And for the record, my uncle was over there in a non-military duty (Even though his an officer in the Marines) and he has said we went about it all wrong because of the damage it has caused by destabilizing the region.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 22, 2009 at 7:21 PM
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I think he got Iraq right
posted by
WhorledPeas
on January 22, 2009 at 5:02 PM
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WhorledPeas
Are you claiming you views are more based on facts than mine? What you have said here and elsewhere is just as much opinion as what I am saying, if not more so. Give me examples of the good that Bush did while in office. I showed you where I feel Bush screwed up, now you show me where you think he got it right.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 22, 2009 at 4:52 PM
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I disagree that Bush did no good
Since your whole political agenda seems based on your opinion - not a universally agreed upon fact - that Bush did no good, it seems pointless to continue this discussion.
posted by
WhorledPeas
on January 22, 2009 at 4:03 PM
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WhorledPeas
I never said Bush could do no right, just that he did no right. I think he could have if he gave a damn, but it was clear he just didn't understand priorities. After all a blind man wearing sunglasses in the dark could have seen the train wreck that has hit our economy coming since shortly after 9/11, yet it took Bush until the end of his second term to admit things were getting bad, while those of us facing reality had been aware of it for over six years now. If he would have taken his head out of his rear for five seconds and actually tried to do something, then maybe things might not have gotten this bad. While I don't blame him for the recession itself, it is clear he could have helped to make it so thing did not get as bad.
So far Obama has been living up to his words and getting the ball rolling on fixing all the problems Bush created. He wasted no time and got right to work, which I hope is how he continues to do things. Yet if you look at the blogs here, the conservatives are no giving him the slightest chance. They have already condemned him and anything he does and have said that nothing good will come of his time in office.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I did give bush the benefit of the doubt after he won the election. I defended him even for a little while. Then he pushed us into Iraq and ignored the real problems this country was having. And as tie passed he showed us clearly that he didn't care about doing what was best for the country, just what he wanted to do.
The faith-based initiatives is one area I greatly disagree with Obama on, but that is a small peace of the bigger picture.
Due to the truly piss poor job that Bush did, anyone who took over was going to make things better, or at least appear to do so. There really was no other outcome. But the thing that Obama did was he gave us all hope, unlike McCain who had nothing to offer us. It just feels good to have someone in office who can inspire and motivate people the way Obama does. Bush couldn't and McCain obviously lacked such a skill as well.
I would bet you anything that in the next year we will see things get better, and a lot of it will come after many of Obama's changes come into effect.
posted by
kooka_lives
on January 22, 2009 at 3:11 PM
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ALL of us need to keep in mind and practice daily in our own lives...
one of Mr. Obama's key lines in his address..."With our gaze fixed on the horizon, and with God's grace upon us, we WILL meet all our challenges"...many of us would like to see all kind of unproductive bickering - partisan, religious, racial, nationalist - stop, and the energies applied for the common good of ALL the people...that is not a choice any more, but an individual responsibility, if we and our children, and their children, have any hope of seeing a better future than today's dismal state of affairs world-wide..keep up the good work!
posted by
ash_pradhan
on January 21, 2009 at 3:49 PM
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Obama said he could not do it by himself
"Like I said, I just feel better knowing the transition has happened and we are done with Bush and are ready for a new path for the country, one that will most likely make things better for all of us." As a conservative, the thing that bothers me about the giddy mood of a little over half the voting population is that you seem to be saying that since Bush could do no right, just by being elected that Obama will make everything better. That is not reality. No, I will not do what the liberals did to Bush for eight years and knock anything Obama tries to do. In order to make this country better, he will need the support and work of all. No one can sit back and think things will get better on their own. As Obama showed by example on Monday, follow up words with actions - volunteer and make sure you individually are contributing as much as you can. The government cannot solve all our problems. As Reagan said, the "government is the problem" (most of the time.) One philosophy Obama shares with both Bushes is he believes in faith-based initiatives.
posted by
WhorledPeas
on January 21, 2009 at 11:35 AM
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me too
posted by
Xeno-x
on January 20, 2009 at 2:59 PM
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