Comments on Is Male Chauvinism Worse Among Online Writers?

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Talion

Very amusing. Yes I often wonder if people would say to people in person what they say to them online.
Now about my nails............

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 7:32 PM | link to this | reply

I think jingoism is the worst thing

people can't see straight through it

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 6:44 PM | link to this | reply

Azur, it certainly does.

posted by majroj on April 30, 2006 at 6:37 PM | link to this | reply

"Anonymity gives cowards the courage to be cruel" is a great line, Talion

posted by Blanche. on April 30, 2006 at 4:53 PM | link to this | reply

Why are you worrying your pretty little head about such things? Shouldn't you be somewhere getting your nails done?

Seriously, I think it's probably worse on-line or any medium where there's no face-to-face contact. It's easier to state your mind when you don't have to look those with an opposing view in the eye. Anonymity gives cowards the courage to be cruel.

posted by Talion on April 30, 2006 at 4:49 PM | link to this | reply

Ironically, Azur,

When he wrote under my id, he was not blocked, merely dismissed.   It was an eye-opening experience for him, as he picked up on the sexist attitude right away, and became more aware that he, writing as me, was being dismissed patronizingly for writing the very same things that he says himself.   I found that illuminating and actually validating, that it was not simply that I did not know my facts, but that the blogger in question merely sought an easy way to dismiss me. 

The same person throws the PMS line into an argument many months later, and I agree, that's a lame non-argument, but one that he has effectively before and obviously works as a way of shutting up his opponent, as his arguments do not hold water.

As Professor Peabody, my boyfriend was simply blocked and ignored, ergo silenced, by others of the hardcore poltical persuasion, so in fact, they dismissed and tried to silence all of us: Blogflogger and me with the "female" PMS thing and him, as Professor Peabody by saying he was "too angry and hostile" and blocking him.  So, actually, although the methods were different, the effect of silencing political opposition was the same. 

Blogflogger fortunately doggedly perseveres.  He and I have given up trying to argue logically.  I agree that women who use the PMS defense willy-nilly are not doing themselves or women in general  any favors and make those of us who refuse to use such manipulative tactics rather disgusted. 

posted by Blanche. on April 30, 2006 at 4:45 PM | link to this | reply

Blanche01, your comment was fascinating

How did your boyfriend feel when he was patted on the head?  Was it a new experience?

How different was it when he logged on as Professor Peabody.
Yes I have seen those kinds of remarks when bloggers say a female blogger is PMSing? I always think that when people get to the point of throwing that into the argument that they obviously haven't got much of an argument.
By the same token, there are women that joke that they are PMSing.  I  always think that line of thought probably does nothing to help woman who are genuinely affected by that and it means that women are limiting themselves somewhat if they put every flare up of opinion down to that.  It is not something I ever think about except when I read about it on blogs.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 4:33 PM | link to this | reply

Blackpearl1

I think it is highly likely that some misunderstandings occur over chivalry. I think that chivalry is something to be cultivated in all people. Thank you for your compliment about my posts.  It's great that we can't predict the responses we get.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 3:38 PM | link to this | reply

Malcolm

I don't really think about it either. However, I am aware that many people do. For example I went to a meeting about my son's sports team a couple of years ago and another mother told me how relieved she was that I was there because she felt so nervous at the idea of being the only woman. I think the dads would have been surprised at that.  I hadn't thought about it for a second

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 3:34 PM | link to this | reply

Majroj

Yes perhaps it is.  I think that jingoism does come across in a certain way

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 3:31 PM | link to this | reply

Katray thanks.

Yes I imagine it is the same both in and out of here.  It would be interesting but probably impossible to gauge where  bloggers are different from others. Perhaps it is only that bloggers express views more readily.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 3:17 PM | link to this | reply

On reflection and reading Dennison and Dave's comments, I would say

Not "worse", but the "same", as in real life. Sociological studies have shown that men do not perceive woman as being as knowledgeable or authoritative. 

posted by Blanche. on April 30, 2006 at 2:17 PM | link to this | reply

Azur, I would say a big "Amen" to this post,

Absolutely, the chauvinism is worse among men, particularly in the political posts. I even did an unintentional sociological experiment. I allowed my boyfriend to write under my Blogit id some months ago.  He is an avid political news junkie and is very adamant in his beliefs. 

He writes as he talks, very bluntly, but his comments were to-the-point, he is a very clear and concise speaker with rhetorical and debate skills (he used to debate in tournaments in high school and college). He's very familiar with evidentiary procedure and what is and is not acceptable logic.  Meaning, imho, he is far from a fuzzy thinker.  When he wrote under "Blanche Du Bois", more than one male blogger in poltics gave him a figurative pat on the head, words to the effect of "run along" that's nice.

When he joined Blogit, briefly, as Professor Peabody, he was immediately ganged up on by some bloggers (one of whom thankfully is no longer here) and blocked.  There is no question in my mind, that in news, politics and "hard topics", men and women are treated very differrently.  Say what they will, the bias is in.   Even Blogflogger, who is as factual and logical in her thinking as anyone I've ever met, as well as meticulous in her research, gets comments like "are you PMSing" from one blogger, whom I will non name, but I have been silenced from writing political blogs, not only by him, but by others who object to the "controversy".  and name-calling. 

posted by Blanche. on April 30, 2006 at 2:11 PM | link to this | reply

John McNab, yes sometimes we get that too

I pretend to be vague for a while and then come in with a killer question

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 2:09 PM | link to this | reply

Hi, Azur,

Some interesting comments here.  I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post and the comments.  I guess there's always room for misunderstanding with posts like this, but I really like reading your work.  I wonder if chauvanism somehow spawned from chivalry.  You know, people taking their old fashion intentions a little over the top or somewhat out of the way.  Hmmm. 

Anyway, now I have to go look up the word, "Jingoist".  I'm not sure if I've heard that one before.  Thanks.  :)

posted by BlackPearl1 on April 30, 2006 at 11:17 AM | link to this | reply

I think it's more that we're Jingoists.

posted by majroj on April 30, 2006 at 10:44 AM | link to this | reply

I don't address gender

when I post or comment, only the points made. As a man I actually despise chauvinism as it gives us all a bad name and some of us are trying to do something about it.

posted by malcolm on April 30, 2006 at 10:10 AM | link to this | reply

Dennison Mann

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 6:08 AM | link to this | reply

Azur

I don't know about online, Azur, but it is still alive and well offline. When we go into a computer shop and Ell asks for something in technical language, the male assistant addresses me when he answers. 

posted by johnmacnab on April 30, 2006 at 5:44 AM | link to this | reply

Fascinating post and comments Azur ;)

I've experienced both types of treatment in political discussions here. Seems about equal to what I see offline.

posted by Katray2 on April 30, 2006 at 5:40 AM | link to this | reply

_Uncle_Dave

Thanks. I don't really think of it as a fight. There are certain values we focus on.  For my son, I think of more in terms that we don't have to fit in with the old fashioned division of labor stereotypes and that is the case at home.

 I have usually worked with far more men than women.  The only time that I really got annoyed about different treatment for men and women  was at the time when my  husband and I had the same kind of job in the same workplace and my  salary was 3/4 of his and that was before I interupted my working life to have children.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 5:02 AM | link to this | reply

So Then Your Question Was Pointless?

If you already know that chauvinism is not a part of everyone then why bother asking such a question about men unless you actually believe that all men are chauvinists? If you think that some men are not chauvinists, and some men hide it, and some men let is show then why bother asking a question you already have the answer to unless the question actually reflects your own brand of prejudice against men? Why not ask, "Are all people chauvinist?" Why ask about men only? Why ask at all, if you already know that not all people are chauvinist?

I see your question as a reflection of your own chauvinism against men.

DM

posted by Dennison..Mann on April 30, 2006 at 4:54 AM | link to this | reply

Dennison Mann

Very funny. No, I am curious about what people think. I imagined some might say that chauvinism is not hidden in some men because it is not present in them while others might say yes, some men disguise chauvinism.
I am sorry  if I did not make it clear enough.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 4:48 AM | link to this | reply

Geez...Are ALL Women Stupid?

I don't really think they are. It's just a question.

DM

posted by Dennison..Mann on April 30, 2006 at 4:31 AM | link to this | reply

"Thanks for your thoughts" Dennison Mann

"Or is it a part of every man that some hide better than others?" I'm sure that the speaker had no idea just how chauvinistic she appeared when she posed her question.)   "
I agree it would be if I expressed it as my view but this was only a question.

"I don't think that either gender has it tougher than the other. I object, however, when someone claims, "Woe is me! I have it so tough just because I married a..."
 I don't have much truck with that either. My feeling when I hear that is shutup and leave

"The average male simply sets to accomplishing whatever chores he feels he must accomplish without a second thought. His wife, however, might put a gold star next to his name in her little mental chart on the day he cleans out the gutters. She'll regard him as "a good little boy" for a few hours after he has finished the task. She might even give him sex that night."

 I am not sure about this. Is it true or is it a stereotype of both genders?  It's hard for me to know because I don't think like that.

posted by Azur on April 30, 2006 at 3:51 AM | link to this | reply

The Blade Of Chauvinism Cuts Us All...

Women often express their own brand of chauvinism more blindly than men do. (For example, some could interpret this quote as a prime example of female chavinism: "Or is it a part of every man which some hide better than others?" I'm sure that the speaker had no idea just how chauvinistic she appeared when she posed her question.)

As for the division of labor in married households, many women who do not work outside the home often expect their husbands to come home after work fully energized to accomplish all the chores she either cannot (or refuses to) do.

Unfortunately, many women forget that washing the car, changing oil, taking out trash, cutting the grass, trimming bushes, hanging pictures, hanging curtains, painting the bathroom, fixing the garbage disposal, getting the decorations out of the attic, patching the crack in the basement wall, installing the computer, repairing the doorbell, killing the weeds, shoveling the driveway, tuning the lawnmower, fertilizing the shrubbery, fertilizing the lawn, adjusting the dish antenna, repairing the roof, hanging crown molding, fixing bicycles, taking out the trash, washing out trashcans, tinkering with the gas grill, painting the ceiling, and all the other things that men "traditionally" do around the home require as much energy as the chores women do. And men often do those chores in addition to working 8 to 12 hours a day just to keep the family fed, clothed, and housed.

I don't think that either gender has it tougher than the other. I object, however, when someone claims, "Woe is me! I have it so tough just because I married a..."

The blade of chauvinism cuts both ways. Women, however, tend to use the accusation of chauvinism (as they use many things) whenever their wheedling fails. Meanwhile, the typical man barely keeps score of who's doing more work around the house. The average male simply sets to accomplishing whatever chores he feels he must accomplish without a second thought. His wife, however, might put a gold star next to his name in her little mental chart on the day he cleans out the gutters. She'll regard him as "a good little boy" for a few hours after he has finished the task. She might even give him sex that night.

DM

 

posted by Dennison..Mann on April 30, 2006 at 3:29 AM | link to this | reply

Is it worse online?

No, I don't think so. I think it's just as bad in real life. The only answer, I'd say, is to keep fighting the fire, as you are with your son.  One advantage online, actually, is that you can hide your gender if so desired. I'm quite prone to wordiness in argument over morality or literature, but political pontification holds little interest for me.

Do men dismiss the arguments of women? Yes, but to the same extent as in real life, I think. There are plenty of men who listen and plenty of women who pontificate too.

I think your best response to me would be: 'Cheers Dave, thanks for your thoughts'. I don't really have a point, do I? I'll come back when you're discussing beer.

posted by _dave_says_ack_ on April 30, 2006 at 2:29 AM | link to this | reply